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Frankie G an d Vito A


Crossface212
Joined: Jan 10, 2019
Posts: 22
LImarty wrote:
quick,

I respect your opinion....BUT, considering that Long Island has been the most productive REGION for quality depth- not singular individuals. Yes, Long Island wrestling in top populous leagues- is no longer superior to smaller leagues and communities. This alone - is not healthy for the climate of wrestling throughout the state. With this being said- the productivity of NYS HS multiple champs for the most parts are not making a dent at the DI level...this includes 2X 3X, 4X, NY Champs....this is from ALL-PARTs of NYS.

As far as DI- AAs....some/ most are not AA-ing until their 5th year or do not last at Institutions with the exception of very few,

Who was Long Island's last NCAA Champion ?? When did he wrestle ??

If, Dake and Gwiz can make it to the Top- at the Top level...then, please explain why others rarely make it . Remember Lansing, NY and Duanesburg, NY are not the Top of NYS's HS wrestling food chain.

Just a rational observation from someone who has seen NON-NYS Champs make it to the DI Podium.



Has there been an NCAA Champ from LI since Jesse Jantzen in '04 and then Kerry McCoy probably 7-10 yrs before that? Maybe Rasheed (same HS as McCoy) does it this year.


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1089
Crossface.

Specifically. my point !!

Yes, we know that THINGs change for wrestlers at the next level...socially, academically, and just maturity- or- the lack of maturity.

NO....Jesse Jantzen was the last Champ/ Finalist from Suffolk Co...and you have to go back even further to find a Finalist from Nassau Co. in Tom Ryan.

Many areas in NYS haven't produced a Finalist in over 30 yrs- some never.

BTW....When just passing it off- as we produce around the same amount of AAs each year - is kinda like accepting less in my eyes. The non- productive results in DI for former NYS multiple X state champs is profound....profoundly poor....MANY not cracking a starting line-up others quitting the sport.


Heisenberg
Joined: Nov 30, 2016
Posts: 149
Location: WNY
Martyó- sounds alot like your logic is óó-

DONíT TRY ! THAT WAY, YOU WONíT FAIL !
_________________
" Who are you talking to right now ? .... Who is it you think you see ? "


quickpick
Joined: Jan 9, 2015
Posts: 256
LImarty wrote:
Crossface.

Specifically. my point !!

Yes, we know that THINGs change for wrestlers at the next level...socially, academically, and just maturity- or- the lack of maturity.

NO....Jesse Jantzen was the last Champ/ Finalist from Suffolk Co...and you have to go back even further to find a Finalist from Nassau Co. in Tom Ryan.

Many areas in NYS haven't produced a Finalist in over 30 yrs- some never.

BTW....When just passing it off- as we produce around the same amount of AAs each year - is kinda like accepting less in my eyes. The non- productive results in DI for former NYS multiple X state champs is profound....profoundly poor....MANY not cracking a starting line-up others quitting the sport.


Marty, Jantzen was a state champ, when states was all 1 division. Not taking away anything from the current format but being a state champ now Division I or II is not equal to him being a state champ. We both agree that things need to change as far as thatís concerned but my point is you canít compare the two.


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1089
Or maybe, it has something to do with- wrestling the best away from NYS...having HS Coaches who have had a NCAA resume or World resume.

You have to have numbers....heck, PA has MANY State Champs not make it in DI....yet, they have MANY who do in ALL three divisions DI.II.III.

I strongly believe that the MAJORITY of HS Coaches in NYS- have a ceiling . Many are not versed in ALL positions- Many are not driven to raise their student's ability.

NYS wrestlers today- are- just different....with very few exceptions.

IMO- The BEST Coaches are retired and/ or in the ground. Their disciples are not as good- or- demanding.


Crossface212
Joined: Jan 10, 2019
Posts: 22
LImarty wrote:
Or maybe, it has something to do with- wrestling the best away from NYS...having HS Coaches who have had a NCAA resume or World resume.

You have to have numbers....heck, PA has MANY State Champs not make it in DI....yet, they have MANY who do in ALL three divisions DI.II.III.

I strongly believe that the MAJORITY of HS Coaches in NYS- have a ceiling . Many are not versed in ALL positions- Many are not driven to raise their student's ability.

NYS wrestlers today- are- just different....with very few exceptions.

IMO- The BEST Coaches are retired and/ or in the ground. Their disciples are not as good- or- demanding.



Call me an optimist Marty but I think the next 4 years looks very promising for wrestler from NYS. Aside from the returning NYS AAs (Yanni, Picc, Hermida, Rasheed) there are several young wrestlers that look to have the potential to AA multiple times in Vito, Teemer, Greg D and Busiello in addition to a few that I'm sure I'm overlooking. Frankie G is a stud and even though he had a tough scuffle and I wish he would have gone to UB, I do think he will pull through and have a solid D1 career. Wrestling is a tough sport and sometimes even the best HS wresters don't pan out.....if you are from Sec XI like I am then Adam Mariano will come to mind or Ryan Needle from this part of the state.


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1089
Crossface,

I hear ya....and I am not here to "put down" any wrestler and his College career or lack there of..

FACT- Multiple time NYS Champs- in both HS DI and DII .....are not making it to the NCAA DI Semi- Finals without any regularity and IMO the future is not bright.

Im just asking "WHY" ...past NYS "phenoms" are not making the level change. Maybe, NYS Wrestling is the" BIG Fish in a SMALL pond."

We will see.....and I hope the wrestlers you mentioned will find their way to a TITLE. Not to minimize AA status.

JMO-

I can see Piccininni upsetting Rivera but, having an improbable task against Lee.

Vito may need to get better on the Mat- at this level and I think he'll need two yrs - to make any impact. More tells me his future is Freestyle.

Yianni is talented and cerebral enough to do it again...to me McKenna is lights out this year

Rasheed can get picked off by a good takedown wrestler.....Im hoping he has a big- Big 10 Tourney.

I think at the DI level- Teemer will have to learn how to ride or he will not make an impact. I do not think Busciello will have any impact at the DI level. G. Diakomaholis looks like he will continue to improve as he gets older- fits at 125 lbs-

.................
Mariano- had issues off the mat.


quickpick
Joined: Jan 9, 2015
Posts: 256
LImarty wrote:
Or maybe, it has something to do with- wrestling the best away from NYS...having HS Coaches who have had a NCAA resume or World resume.

You have to have numbers....heck, PA has MANY State Champs not make it in DI....yet, they have MANY who do in ALL three divisions DI.II.III.

I strongly believe that the MAJORITY of HS Coaches in NYS- have a ceiling . Many are not versed in ALL positions- Many are not driven to raise their student's ability.

NYS wrestlers today- are- just different....with very few exceptions.

IMO- The BEST Coaches are retired and/ or in the ground. Their disciples are not as good- or- demanding.


The majority of HS coaches in any state do not have DI AA on their resume. PA continues to breed guys who succeed at the next level because of their system. Guys start early, know the path to the state tournament, attend camps, wrestle year round and compete nationally and in multiple styles. Take a look at the guys from NY who succeed at the next level.....theyíre doing the same thing. The HS coach can influence these things regardless of their wrestling resume. In all reality the HS coach has little to do with the overall success of the wrestler for the 3 months they coach them. Itís the other 9 months that make the difference.


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1089
NO.

After considerable research . THE BEST NYS kids on the mat at any level - show that it goes further than the AMOUNT of matches wrestled. More seems to suggest that the LEVEL of ability is determined by the BEST COMPETITION from the strongest possible competition elsewhere - and- the BEST coaching available which might not be in their area.

To reach a superiority on the mat...you have to have a kid who is willing and is able to continue learning on the mat.

DAKE as an example- was NEVER the best FS wrestler- today, he is a World Champ. His pursuit of this- and- his ability to learn his technique was developed by his ability to REPEAT over, and over again. This comes from within- it comes from others who put in the time to make you better. Both he and Jantzen were not dynamic in neutral as 17, 18, 19 yr old wrestler yet, progressively worked on their technique as 20 somethns.

15 yrs ago or so we brought kids over to PA- we wrestled a bunch of kids who were coached by Jack Cuvo....Would you rather have LImarty developing your kids and/or Jack Cuvo ???

I agree - to some extent that having a wrestler for 3-4 months will not change his PERFORMANCE. Where we differ as simply is this. A minority of HS. Coaches have the ability of raising the level of a good wrestler into becoming a very good wrestler. My point again is simple . Most of NYS's very good wrestlers are not making it at the next level- MOST will not do the extra stuff to raise their game. MANY just bail out.

I dont want to make predictions on "somebodies kid"....I must admit - my feelings are "glass half empty"- History is trending this way. JMO.

PS. There are some very poor wrestling coaches out there - MOST that cannot raise the level of their kids for a slew of reasons.


quickpick
Joined: Jan 9, 2015
Posts: 256
LImarty wrote:
NO.

After considerable research . THE BEST NYS kids on the mat at any level - show that it goes further than the AMOUNT of matches wrestled. More seems to suggest that the LEVEL of ability is determined by the BEST COMPETITION from the strongest possible competition elsewhere - and- the BEST coaching available which might not be in their area.

To reach a superiority on the mat...you have to have a kid who is willing and is able to continue learning on the mat.

DAKE as an example- was NEVER the best FS wrestler- today, he is a World Champ. His pursuit of this- and- his ability to learn his technique was developed by his ability to REPEAT over, and over again. This comes from within- it comes from others who put in the time to make you better. Both he and Jantzen were not dynamic in neutral as 17, 18, 19 yr old wrestler yet, progressively worked on their technique as 20 somethns.

15 yrs ago or so we brought kids over to PA- we wrestled a bunch of kids who were coached by Jack Cuvo....Would you rather have LImarty developing your kids and/or Jack Cuvo ???

I agree - to some extent that having a wrestler for 3-4 months will not change his PERFORMANCE. Where we differ as simply is this. A minority of HS. Coaches have the ability of raising the level of a good wrestler into becoming a very good wrestler. My point again is simple . Most of NYS's very good wrestlers are not making it at the next level- MOST will not do the extra stuff to raise their game. MANY just bail out.

I dont want to make predictions on "somebodies kid"....I must admit - my feelings are "glass half empty"- History is trending this way. JMO.

PS. There are some very poor wrestling coaches out there - MOST that cannot raise the level of their kids for a slew of reasons.


I agree with the fact that competition is what makes the wrestler. This is exactly my point, multiple styles (freestyle, folk style, Greco), and competition all year long in national tournaments make the best wrestlers.

Was Dake coaches by NCAA AA? Gwiz? Yianni? No, but they sought out competition nationally and wrestled all year.. Your regular season HS coach is not the determining factor until they coach in the offseason. I agree that the majority of coaches do not come with that resume but most schools donít care. Theyíre looking for anyone willing to spend 3 months in the winter coaching for $5000. Itís not easy, thatís not to say itís not worth it but you end up with who you end up with. Thereís a lot more money to be made in the offseason which is where those NCAA guys are going (ie Gillespie in LI). If you arenít getting what you need in your room, seek it out. Almost every county in NY has a club. The fact that guys are getting good enough in NY to win nationals without a DI AA coach, tells me it has very little to do with the HS coach.


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1089
The wrestling at the Eastern States Tourney - was visual pollution. There wasnt even a competitive bracket....and the semi-finals and finals were for the most part novice. I have been watching wrestling since the 60's. and I have been to the Eastern States for over 13 yrs. The talent level in NYS with very few exceptions is minimal and extremely void of any real talent. If, I was recruiting - I would look elsewhere. imo- I didnt see any future NCAA DI Finalists from NYS.

THIS IS THE LAST RESPONSE/POST that I will ever acknowledge. Signing off- BEST TO ALL......LImarty


quickpick
Joined: Jan 9, 2015
Posts: 256
LImarty wrote:
The wrestling at the Eastern States Tourney - was visual pollution. There wasnt even a competitive bracket....and the semi-finals and finals were for the most part novice. I have been watching wrestling since the 60's. and I have been to the Eastern States for over 13 yrs. The talent level in NYS with very few exceptions is minimal and extremely void of any real talent. If, I was recruiting - I would look elsewhere. imo- I didnt see any future NCAA DI Finalists from NYS.

THIS IS THE LAST RESPONSE/POST that I will ever acknowledge. Signing off- BEST TO ALL......LImarty


Great scouting report from a guy who didnít even finish his HS career....


tampacuse
Joined: Nov 2, 2011
Posts: 45
LIMARTY. You have signed off before. What's change.... NOTHING. I do enjoy reading some of your takes. You make forum interesting. That doesn't mean I agree with to many of your takes. You don't like the split division however it does allow more kids to be seen by coaches, which means sports scholarships and that means kids feel they are getting rewarded for hard work. I feel that is showing our youth that if hard you can find a payoff or reward. Alot of high school coaches get the job because they are teachers. It doesn't have to do with experience. THE FURTHER YOU HAVE TO DRIVE FOR GOOD COACHING AND GOOD PARTNERS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH DEVELOPMENT. That's why L.I has more success at States


provocateur
Joined: Dec 21, 2006
Posts: 1143
We haven't seen the last of LIMoron.

The quality of wrestling right now is the best it has ever been. The fundamentals, funk and takedown defense are all far superior to what it was like in the 80s and 90s when I watched and participated in the sport.

Dake in recent times just put together one of the best careers in the history of NCAA Division one. Yianni just won as a true freshman. Cornell is pumping out titles and AAa like never before "back in the day".

What part of the state hasn't produced an NCAA champion? Sec 7?

1?
2 - Gwiz, 2 runners-up in Parker, Fronhofer
3?
4 - Dake, Penrith, JPO, Nickerson
5 - Yianni, Gregor
6 - Prescott, Anderson
7?
8?
9 - Hirsch, Banach, Banach
10 - Clark
11 - Jantzen, McCoy, Yozzo, Gallo


mikef
Joined: Mar 8, 2008
Posts: 18
provocateur wrote:
We haven't seen the last of LIMoron.

The quality of wrestling right now is the best it has ever been. The fundamentals, funk and takedown defense are all far superior to what it was like in the 80s and 90s when I watched and participated in the sport.

Dake in recent times just put together one of the best careers in the history of NCAA Division one. Yianni just won as a true freshman. Cornell is pumping out titles and AAa like never before "back in the day".

What part of the state hasn't produced an NCAA champion? Sec 7?

1?
2 - Gwiz, 2 runners-up in Parker, Fronhofer
3?
4 - Dake, Penrith, JPO, Nickerson
5 - Yianni, Gregor
6 - Prescott, Anderson
7?
8?
9 - Hirsch, Banach, Banach
10 - Clark
11 - Jantzen, McCoy, Yozzo, Gallo


8 - Carl DeStefanis (Locust Valley/Penn state - 1984 @118lbs)
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