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Livinginthepast
Joined: Feb 17, 2016
Posts: 52
I agree about the coaches being transient, and in reality: not that committed to doing the job the way it should be done, and demonstrating passion for the sport. Go to a local tournament and look how disinterested many of the coaches look when they are coaching their wrestlers. You can see it in their eyes and you can see it in their body language. Look at the number of coaches who won't even wear their school colors or a shirt that has the school name on it. A little thing, but it makes a statement.



takedown20
Joined: Feb 10, 2016
Posts: 54
You're living in the past too.


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 924
"living in the past " ???

More like LEARNING from the past.

There are principles that every generation can and has learned from the past. In reference to this sport- Wrestling- the past is where we learn what is healthy for the sport. Weigh Certifications if, implemented back in the 70s would have made this sport everlasting. Those wrestlers who have come and gone because they have horrible memories of the trials and tribulations of losing weight.

Today, the sport of wrestling imo has been softened. Which is not a bad thing but, it has definitely made changes that infuriates me . I do not believe MIDDLE SCHOOLERs or Upper class peewee wrestlers should be on Varsity mats. It weakens the overall concept of Program- the systematic advancement from peewees- to MS- to HS.

I am all for change. JUST DO NOT TELL ME- THAT THE THING I AM SEEING IS......BETTER.

Fact is........ Me and others are no longer going to events because of the visual pollution we are seeing on the mat. So, a new generation of fans are BELIEVING that what they are seeing is GREAT when unfortunately they have "NO CLUE" what great is.



takedown20
Joined: Feb 10, 2016
Posts: 54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDKWfHVE2fs

Minga maybe you're right Marty! That is so crazy intense wrestling. In your words "LMFAO!!"


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 924
lol.

The UNIFORMs were not pretty- the STYLE was ugly- but, was this any different than the ham-n-egger today ??? Fact is when the wrestler reaches in the crotch- Do you know how many kids would give up the two pts -today without having any knowledge of reaching in the crotch.

In 1976, Huntington HS had an exibition match with the Russian National Team....the most anticipated match was between 2X NYS Champ and World Champ Segei Bellaglasov...the match was more intense than the Russian Coach wanted it....Thomas 18 yrs old- lost 2-1. Did you know that HS senior Adam Mariano beat a 3rd in the World from Germany ???

Look, I have seen wrestlers like Carl Adams- who wrestled in the late 60s- and became "Middle Weight Wrestler of the Decade" in the late 70s- these wrestlers were animals- that you are comparing to kids still wet behind their ears.

Nick Piccininni dominated 4X PA STATE CHAMP-Luke Fletcher . ....I saw Nickerson- in 2001-2005/ Nickerson as a junior/ senior would have owned Piccininni. This doesnt take away from the wrestler's ability but, it does distinguish between cycles or decades. Look, Kyle Dake isnt anywhere close to being the BEST HS wrestler from NYS....Jantzen would have owned him....and Deangelis would have beaten Jantzen.......

btw. Who would you pick in a match between a senior Gregor Gillespie vs senior Yianni Diakomaholis ???? Personally, I think GG would win the takedown- and ride the snot out of Yianni


johnnyrooster
Joined: Nov 28, 2008
Posts: 1092
Location: Hen House
How bout them ''86 Bears!💪


HHS83
Joined: Jan 8, 2008
Posts: 41
I thought Marsha signed off????? Too good to be true.


johnnyrooster
Joined: Nov 28, 2008
Posts: 1092
Location: Hen House
HHS83 wrote:
I thought Marsha signed off????? Too good to be true.

Marsha sign off? And I got a bridge I'd like to sell you '83! Although it was built in the mid 70's
It ain't worth a 💩 Compared to today's bridges.


johnnyrooster
Joined: Nov 28, 2008
Posts: 1092
Location: Hen House
HHS83 wrote:
I thought Marsha signed off????? Too good to be true.

They say dreams do come true.....


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 924
yep, and sometimes WET DREAMs end up producing roosters.


provocateur
Joined: Dec 21, 2006
Posts: 1106
How does Marty talk about guys like Prescott and Bouzakis, Jantzen and Nickerson as if they were old school. They weren't. In 10 years Marty will be saying that the new seniors wouldn't be a stain on Yianni, etc. He just keeps moving the goal posts. Not long ago Nickerson was an underachiever. THe elite kids of today are exactly that.

The overall participation rates are down. THere are too many forfeits, But the elite kids specialize and get better competition at iron man, beast, super 32, fargo and world's than they ever got back in the day.


provocateur
Joined: Dec 21, 2006
Posts: 1106
Jantzen would have ripped Frank D's arms off and beaten him to death with them. Look at some videos and tell me that they are in any way comparable.


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 924
'the elite kids specialize". THE BIGGEST BOGUS- ARGUMENT EVER CONCEIVED !!!!!!

Here are some things you rarely produce in your constant waving of the NEW FLAVOR flag of the year.

Back in the late 60s, 70s, 80s- MOST High Schools were full of male athletes that went from one sport to another. THE BEST ATHLETEs in their area. If, you couldnt dribble a basketball or shoot one- MOST joined wrestling...and a majority started as peewees OR in JR high- These ATHLETEs were willing to learn and they were taught by the best Coaches who remained constant in NYS for decades.. Giani, Stanbro, Campo, Leggio, Gardner, Hayes, Jacotout, Gillespie, Capone, Piccozzi and so many others - some who were WORLD CLASS wrestlers. The sport of wrestling especially in the mid-70s became so relative that wrestle-offs were constant even in JR Highs. Wrestlers were SCHOOLED - schooled is SPECIALIZATION. From every position - drilled. Drilled in rooms that were dungeons- drilled with partners that were angry at losing weight- drilled by egotistic maniac coaches- So, in regards to your SPECIALIZATION...LOL. What I just put down- is just a tad of what you are comparing this generation to.

Each cycle- in HS CONTACT Sports. Football/ Wrestling has progressively declined in NYS. So, yes- not even having to go back 40 yrs or 30 yrs. It is easy Mathematics to believe that kids from the late 90s/ early 00s- are better than the current crop.

Lastly, the Coaching today- compared to 40 yrs- 30 yrs- 20 yrs ago......isnt even an argument . So, this alone destroys all your SPECIALIZATION argument. Before Lou Giani- retired he was asked . "What is the difference today coaching than it was 20- 30 yrs ago" ??? His reply. "what I use to teach in week now, takes me a month". Do the math- just in that statement. A wrestling coach today at the HS level- for most - is still teaching basics. SPECIALIZE....LMFAO !!!!

ps. imo- Cory Jantzen tech fall Yianni D.


firemenj
Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Posts: 159
Location: NY
I think one thing old school guys like you Marty forget is the natural evolution of sports. Were kids in the 70s mentally tougher than kids today? Yeah probably. But sports evolve. Wrestling is no exception. Back then the style was hard nosed power wrestling, over time styles evolved and changed to gain a competitive advantage. Getting quicker was a way to counter and gain an advantage over power. Scrambling evolved and became commonplace because it works and creates success. It's not a result of being lazy, or anything like that. Ask one of these youth kids and their parents doing 300 matches in a year if their kid is lazy or soft. The current style of wrestling evolved because it beat the old style of wrestling. You still see some old school beat-you-up-and-make-you-cry types today that are successful, Louie Deprez comes to mind, but not all kids are cut out to wrestle that way. As you'v pointed out, it's a different generation, you can't coach that much of a killer mentality into a kid anymore, so coaches evolved the game and techniques instead. And the reason you can't coach a killer mentality isn't just PC nonsense (all though there is some of that), it's because those 'tough old coaches' took it was too far. Not all, but enough. Kids were broken ad safety and humility gets crossed aside. Over the years too many coaches crossed the line to either emotionally scarring kids or in some cases killing them, that's why there are so many rules and regulations in place now, it's a safety thing.

But back to my original argument, sports evolve. You can say how great old wrestlers were and they were, but you can't compare eras. A wrestler from the 70s is 40 years of wrestling evolution behind current wrestlers. This is true of any sport, so please do not think I am bashing old school wrestlers they were tougher than nails for sure. Look at football for example. I'll take Larry Csonka, the RB for the 1972 Miami Dolphins. He was a smash mouth, tough, hard-nosed football player. He's a hall of famer and one of the greatest players of the early 70s. He would get cut from a current NFL team. He would not be good enough to make the team. GO bak to some of the great pioneers of the sport and it's even worse. I don't think Bronco Nagurski could walk on at a D3 school, and no one doubt she was one of the greatest to ever pick up a pigskin. Why is this? It's not because one era is necisarilly better, but because the sport evolved. Coaches looked at their team and realized they couldn't out smashmouth the Oakland Raiders or Pittsburgh Steelers of the 1970s. SO they found ways to beat them, by getting faster, spreading the game out. The sport evolved to beat what it was, as everyone tried to stay on top, the sport got faster because that's what won. Thus why a mediocre QB can throw for 4,000 yards like it's nothing when that used to be a major achievement. Evolution.

The modern style of wrestling evolved to beat the wrestlers that came before. That's why an older wrestler would struggle on a current mat. But if a current wrestler was raised up in a different age, they may not have been as successful as they are. You may not like the current style, as it's less about hard-nosed toughness, but the current style evolved to beat the older style, and I just think we need to consider that a little more.


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 924
firemanj,

What you described to me has more to do with RULEs and STYLE.

About the amount of matches- TRUE but, if you continue to wrestle the same ordinary pool of opponents - you arent raising your level. Using a handful of kids in NYS- they are not getting ANY competition on a weekly basis for the past three years yet, for many years- in NYS the pool was so filled with talent that were only a pt or two away from the BEST.

Your argument about BIGGER, FASTER , STRONGER is out the window- ALL football players have been running 40 yd dashes since the 70s- and- the standard of 4.5 + or - has always been the gauge. Earl Campbell , Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Herschell Walker, Marcus Allen, OJ Simpson etc. etc. etc. would be quite adequate today. QBs like Boomer Esaison, Vinny Testeverde were Long Island products- Jimbo Elliot was big back in 1985....lol.... Ive heard this argument over the years and it makes me laugh. SIZE- is relative. TALENT is not.

ps. I would take Bob Griese, Steve Young, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, and others over Eli Manning any day of the week...yet, people like to believe Eli is an ELITE QB...lol..while the other guys rarely get mentioned when talking about -elite.

STRUGGLE ....LOL. The current elite wrestlers today at the College level- are comparative- to the HS level 20- 30 yrs ago....hear that ?? I would take a HS senior Cary Kolat/ PA and wrestle any of these 125lb/ 133lb NCAA wrestlers Their set-ups are week. Their execution of a take down is not smooth...relatively, no riding skills whatsoever . The STYLE of stalling on their feet - blocking, 3 pt stances, no shots- gets recognized today as stalemates...when ultimately, it is stalling in the neutral position. You, like many others are IN LOVE with the style today. It is prettier to watch- BUT, IT ISNT ....BETTER.

EVOLUTION....another topic that gets lost in comparisons. The OLD DAY ATHLETE vs the MODERN DAY ATHLETE. ....the Modern Day athlete in the PROFESSIONAL RANKs came about in the 60s. To think Jim Brown, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson and others wouldnt be successful today is not seeing with too much clarity' As far as wrestling goes- lol- the standard in which we assess HS greatness can not be determined by the amount of wins or titles ....It can only be determined by the success of those you have beaten . huh ??? Yep, the kids that Yianni beats- must have some success - to establish his assessment and recognition.

NYS Championship Bracket / 130 lbs

1)Shawn Riley- did not attend college
2)Steven Brown- 3 yr DI starter. NCAA AA
3)Gregor Gillespie- NYS Champ, NCAA Champ, 3X NCAA AA
4)Joe Whitaker- Fargo Gr Finalist. Wrestled at Buffalo

....I guess Riley was pretty good. lol. btw- he was pinned by Nickerson
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