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Mar 6, 2017
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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In 1975, 1976, 1977....New York State was on par with PA.....and all the way through the mid '80s...with anyone in the Country.
Many HS County Champs won one title- waiting to get their chance as a senior.
Today, is the bottom of the barrel as far as the whole concept of PROGRAM. It is cyclical- spotty- and the depth of competition locally can be evaluated as soft...concurrent with a local society that doesnt favor contact sports. This is WHY I get in huge discussions about then and now. The BEST today shine brighter because the room is darker.
Im sorry- unless society changes- which , (imo )it keeps getting softer . If, it remains this way- this Sport has seen it's best year behind. I do not see a revamping of the Island/ State having a renewal of being friendly to Contact Sports.
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Mar 6, 2017
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LATDROP
Joined: Dec 30, 2013
Posts: 81
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They're right we have to many weight classes. That was a failed experiment by the federation and we need to get rid of a couple. 99lbs is a junior high weight class and needs to go. They should also immediately do away with 7th graders on varsity. We do not have to follow federation weight classes and that's obviously because we have 99. If we don't rebuild the modified system soon we will continue to have low numbers. Make modified mean something.
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Mar 6, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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"Falc you are not sure what my opinion is because I myself am having trouble with it. On one side removing weight classes sucks and smells bad to me. More competition as a standard is better, but in the light of reduced numbers in schools why wouldn't we go back to a time when we had a reduced rosters."
You keep saying reduced rosters. Do you been less weight classes? Okay then, let's go back to 1985, when the sport was thriving...........and they had 14 weight classes, and 2 of them were 91 and 95. Will that work today? School numbers have no bearing on wrestling programs. If they did, Mattituck would be getting their rear-ends kicked from Longwood.......every time!
"At this point those two statements are balancing a scale in my mind, not enough for me to act. Now in the other thing that I have been having trouble with is selling this sport to people not involved. I have posted elsewhere about this adnauseum and I have been forming an opinion about how forfeits are hurting our sport (among other things)from being interesting to the outsider. So now anything that will help with teams having "full" lineups will make it more interesting to the average viewer."
Let me ask you this.......why are forfeits a problem to the viewer who goes to duals? They only take 2 seconds, then it's on to the next match. No problem. What, you think you're going to get premier match-ups if you eliminate some of the forfeits? You won't. Know why? Because the WC system tells coaches that losses can damage their kid's chances, that's why. Sorry, I am not if favor of less kids on the mat because some adults feel like they have to make changes. The same people who think getting rid of weight classes will increase competition are the same ones responsible for the 2 division system that decreased competition in the first place!
"Scales start tipping towards cutting weight classes, a little, not a lot. This is going to happen whether I like it or not, so if I can post and offer an intermediary solution like taking Michigan weight classes as a step before we eliminate two weight classes and some state rep agrees and moves forward better to remove one instead of two, scales tipping more."
Like I said, they can propose anything they want. Bring it down to 7 weight classes if you'd like! It's all just a shortcut to helping solve the real problem..........the MS programs suck, and the sport is not attracting kids. At this point, creating less opportunities for mat time is just a huge fail.
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Mar 6, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Some facts:
1963 - 12 weight classes
1973 - 13 weight classes
1983 - 14
1993 - 14
2003 - 15
2011 - 15
2013 - 15 current weight classes
I can only speak to my personal environment, but when I talk to educators who have a larger scope then I do they tell me that there are similar problems throughout the state. News day article states a 70% decline in elementary school across LI (yes the article is about something else but numbers are numbers). Late 1960's, 1970's and again in the1980's we were in the height of LI school enrollment, as with any problem you can see that the people in charge were behind in addressing the problem of higher enrollment with respect to size of wrestling rosters. More kids in schools, bigger rosters. There was a blip around late 90's early 2000's and since then major drop in high school enrollment. Why wouldn't roster size follow suit?
http://historiccensus.longislandindexmaps.org/img/LongIslandsTransformation1970to2010_GuidetotheInteractiveMaps.pdf
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/education/elementary-school-enrollment-shrinking-across-li-data-show-1.4785698
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Mar 7, 2017
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BULL80
Joined: Nov 30, 2016
Posts: 57
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LATDROP wrote:They're right we have to many weight classes. That was a failed experiment by the federation and we need to get rid of a couple. 99lbs is a junior high weight class and needs to go. They should also immediately do away with 7th graders on varsity. We do not have to follow federation weight classes and that's obviously because we have 99. If we don't rebuild the modified system soon we will continue to have low numbers. Make modified mean something.
Keeping 7th graders off varsity does not solve anything, modified will countinue to mean nothing until you have participation that comes from a youth program. From someone who had a 7th grader wrestle varsity I wouldn't join a modified program I would stay on the youth circuit and wrestle in PA/NJ. Most of the really good youth kids in NY don't even wrestle in NY during the year, fix the depth in the youth system and participation and then maybe you have a chance to have a good NYS JH circuit.
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Mar 7, 2017
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132nomore
Joined: Jan 3, 2015
Posts: 61
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That lies part of the problem
Kids not joining the MS team because parents feel they are above it
It used to mean something to be on your school team and have a sense of belonging and pride to wear the school colors
If your kid is moved up early that is great if he is not there is no reason not to wrestle MS
Get more mat time get more repetitions in practice room
With out the better kids competing on that level it will never change
You can still wrestle for your club team while you wrestle MS
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Mar 7, 2017
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Livinginthepast
Joined: Feb 17, 2016
Posts: 52
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BULL80 wrote:LATDROP wrote:They're right we have to many weight classes. That was a failed experiment by the federation and we need to get rid of a couple. 99lbs is a junior high weight class and needs to go. They should also immediately do away with 7th graders on varsity. We do not have to follow federation weight classes and that's obviously because we have 99. If we don't rebuild the modified system soon we will continue to have low numbers. Make modified mean something.
Keeping 7th graders off varsity does not solve anything, modified will countinue to mean nothing until you have participation that comes from a youth program. From someone who had a 7th grader wrestle varsity I wouldn't join a modified program I would stay on the youth circuit and wrestle in PA/NJ. Most of the really good youth kids in NY don't even wrestle in NY during the year, fix the depth in the youth system and participation and then maybe you have a chance to have a good NYS JH circuit.
I agree. Modified typically does NOT get qualified/good coaches in most cases and there is little if any guidance from the varsity head coach. At least from my experiences. Once the varsity/jv season starts: modified becomes a distant memory. Wrestlers who are serious; stay in a club or solid youth program until that wrestler is ready for jv/varsity. You will get more out of it and the culture in the room will be more positive and the instruction will be deeper instead of doing the same moves everyday and going as slow as the slowest in the room. I wonder how many future wrestlers we are losing because they start wrestling too early and quit after a few years and never return to wrestling at the modified level. Just wondering...
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Mar 7, 2017
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Raider92
Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 156
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If your wrestler does not get moved up early please have them wrestle for their modified program. Yes I agree the instruction might not be as good as their club, the competition won't be as good as their club but they might get something even more important out of it if they are parented properly. They will get an opportunity to pay it forward and show others what they have learned, they will get an opportunity to be leaders. That experience and growth is much more important to their overall development as a person than telling them "Your too good for modified wrestling" That teaching and helicopter parenting has created a generation of entitled youth who develop little to no leadership skills. Let's be honest very few of our kids will wrestle in college and even fewer will wrestle a the D1 level. Use wrestling to help develop your child as a person it will serve them much better than just trying to develop them as a wrestler.
I run a youth program with over 70 kids in it and I do believe it is great to develop kids and yes it does help the varsity level with kids who are skilled and ready to compete at that level. But I also have developed an opinion over the last few years that it hurts the modified program. Why? Two Reasons.
1) kids who would have given wrestling a try in 7th grade have already tried it at a younger age and might have not been ready for it and they won't give it a second chance
2) kids who have never wrestled think they won't succeed because they did not start in the youth program.
I am not sure if I am right on this, but I have seen our modified numbers drop off in the last 3 years. It bothers me and I am trying to find ways to get more kids to wrestle modified. Back when I was in school the first time you had a chance to wrestle was 7th grade and we would have two middle schools teams in the district with 30+ kids on each team. Even just a few years ago each team had 25 +/- kids on each team; now it is only 15 kids on each team.
One thing I would like to see is for modified sports to move to 6-8th grade, have tournaments, counties, sectionals ect. I know that with the cost of those things it probably won't happen but in the states it does they have strong modified systems and even stronger high school systems.
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Mar 7, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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"Keeping 7th graders off varsity does not solve anything, modified will countinue to mean nothing until you have participation that comes from a youth program. From someone who had a 7th grader wrestle varsity I wouldn't join a modified program I would stay on the youth circuit and wrestle in PA/NJ. Most of the really good youth kids in NY don't even wrestle in NY during the year, fix the depth in the youth system and participation and then maybe you have a chance to have a good NYS JH circuit."
100% CORRECT!!!!!!! There is no shortcut to this. Removing weight classes without improving the youth system is like putting lipstick on a pig.
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Mar 7, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Raider, great post. I haven't had a lot of time to digest all of the points you made but I think it fits in with what I know of wrestling. This is the most humbling of sports and paying forward is and has always been a proud tradition. New rules because of lawsuits have kept our college kids from coming back and working out with our best highschool kids like they have done in the past (disparaging levels they call it). Why not have our top/elite youth wrestlers help out in MS rooms? My sons were not allowed to compete in 7th grade. I learned my lesson with older one and didn't put younger one in varsity room (for workouts only) because the older one was discouraged with lack of JV matches our school offered. Younger one stayed in MS room for 7th grade wrestled the youth circuit with his club, and the MS coach has asked him (now in 8th) to come back and help train his friends. The MS coach is a legend in our community for LAX but has done every sport and is currently reffing for JV in Suffolk, but to my knowledge was just an OK wrestler himself. It was at his request my son and a number of freshmen have come back to help him and I think it is an act of genius. In his room now that I think of it numbers are up about 15% from past few years, and the kids who literally know nothing have a belief that they can win. Time will tell but I don't believe that my sons progress as a wrestler has been stunted by attending MS wrestling, and I do see the first signs of team spirit in years from a school that doesn't have a long proud tradition in wrestling (but we are doing what we can to change that).
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Mar 7, 2017
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Livinginthepast
Joined: Feb 17, 2016
Posts: 52
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Raider92 wrote:If your wrestler does not get moved up early please have them wrestle for their modified program. Yes I agree the instruction might not be as good as their club, the competition won't be as good as their club but they might get something even more important out of it if they are parented properly. They will get an opportunity to pay it forward and show others what they have learned, they will get an opportunity to be leaders. That experience and growth is much more important to their overall development as a person than telling them "Your too good for modified wrestling" That teaching and helicopter parenting has created a generation of entitled youth who develop little to no leadership skills. Let's be honest very few of our kids will wrestle in college and even fewer will wrestle a the D1 level. Use wrestling to help develop your child as a person it will serve them much better than just trying to develop them as a wrestler.
I run a youth program with over 70 kids in it and I do believe it is great to develop kids and yes it does help the varsity level with kids who are skilled and ready to compete at that level. But I also have developed an opinion over the last few years that it hurts the modified program. Why? Two Reasons.
1) kids who would have given wrestling a try in 7th grade have already tried it at a younger age and might have not been ready for it and they won't give it a second chance
2) kids who have never wrestled think they won't succeed because they did not start in the youth program.
I am not sure if I am right on this, but I have seen our modified numbers drop off in the last 3 years. It bothers me and I am trying to find ways to get more kids to wrestle modified.
Back when I was in school the first time you had a chance to wrestle was 7th grade and we would have two middle schools teams in the district with 30+ kids on each team. Even just a few years ago each team had 25 +/- kids on each team; now it is only 15 kids on each team.
One thing I would like to see is for modified sports to move to 6-8th grade, have tournaments, counties, sectionals ect. I know that with the cost of those things it probably won't happen but in the states it does they have strong modified systems and even stronger high school systems.
The earlier we tell kids they are 'no good' by having tournaments, sectionals, counties, the earlier they stop participating. Developmentally, kids in middle school, most are not quite ready for all of that. Most will disagree with that statement. I would rather have the kid start wrestling, figure things out, go through the ups and downs and then develop. The 'best' wrestlers will excel all the way up, etc. It's those middle of the road kids that wrestling needs and developing them will keep them out on the mat; not tournaments at the earlier age. I love seeing the kid who came up through modified and when that kid is a senior: wins 35-40 matches. It does happen. But with all of that said: it comes down to coaching, motivation, and a varsity head coach who is willing to get involved and show pride in the whole program, not just the varsity team. Show the modified kids and their coaches they count, rotate your assistant coaches to their practices to show moves, to lend a hand, etc. That will make the difference. Oh yea, we haven't discussed: why don't football players wrestle anymore?
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Mar 7, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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"The earlier we tell kids they are 'no good' by having tournaments, sectionals, counties, the earlier they stop participating. Developmentally, kids in middle school, most are not quite ready for all of that. Most will disagree with that statement. I would rather have the kid start wrestling, figure things out, go through the ups and downs and then develop."
So would I. Get the systems in place, and I'm all for it. But until then, making blanket rules that middle school kids can't wrestle varsity, or cutting out weight classes just to pretend you're improving things is just dumb.
"The 'best' wrestlers will excel all the way up, etc. It's those middle of the road kids that wrestling needs and developing them will keep them out on the mat; not tournaments at the earlier age."
Most 'middle of the road" middle schoolers are not wrestling in varsity tournaments anyway.
"Oh yea, we haven't discussed: why don't football players wrestle anymore?"
Most schools I know of, just about everyone from about 152 and up are also from the football team. And if they aren't, it's because they probably weren't football players to begin with. The world just isn't as sports-oriented as it used to be.......and the kids who are, are now specializing. I know a few F-Ball programs on Long Island that folded over the past few years due to sparse turn-out. Plus, football players, in general, were always funny about wrestling to begin with. You always got the 3 sport grinders who wrestled, but a lot of football player didn't like the sport because they prided themselves in being tough guys who took pride in crunching guys who weight 30 pounds less.......but wrestling exposed them. And in todays environment, with coaches constantly pushing kids to focus on being great at one sport, I can imagine that football coaches are not exactly pushing their kids towards wrestling. It's stupid because wrestling can help kids excel at their other sports, but I think that's what's happening.
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Mar 7, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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On another thread on another forum I got beat up for this but here goes again; larger schools are more susceptible then smaller ones, but even at smaller schools (less so) single sport specialization is what most coaches are looking for (even in football, but especially in soccer and LAX). Multi sport athletes are becoming the Dodo bird. Now here is where everyone will post about the handful of kids they know who are multi sport athletes, and we will banter for a few pages, but it is provable and just ask 10 parents who have kids in sports, not wrestlers but other sports and you will see many kids are being penalized by coaches for doing another sport. Now someone will tell me how they would go to the AD if that happened and I will say how would you prove it to the AD. All the coach has to say is he has another kid who is performing well at the moment, done, and parent looks like a fool. Another thing my HS doesn't do well is football (well this year we were good), but our kids are discouraged from wrestling and encouraged to "lift" with the team. I am sure others have heard similar stories.
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Mar 7, 2017
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Raider92
Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 156
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Specialization in sports is the number 1 reason no doubt numbers a down. They are down in all sports. Little League Baseball numbers are way down, Football numbers are down and so on and so on. Kids play one sport year round and maybe fit in another secondary sport in for fun. This is especially true at the larger schools. Baseball teams start off season workout in November and the feeling is if you don't go you won't make the varsity team. I know of a few wrestlers who no longer wrestler because they felt this way. They were afraid if they were at tournaments wrestling instead of a 7am indoor baseball practice in January that they would never make varsity.
Football coaches all over town tell kids not to wrestle, to lift with the team and work out all summer as a team. Drive by Pittsford in July and you will see a full padded practice going on.
In the late 80's and early 90's at Fairport our Football coach would say what are you doing in the Winter and Spring.....be a 3-sport athlete...not a 3-sport star....just an athlete. He knew we were not going to be pros and playing multiple sports made you a better athlete which in turn made the Football team better in the Fall. A lot of coaches nowadays have a deranged view of things and think playing one sport is the way to go. Everyone use to try and play 3-sports and if you did not make the school team you would play on a rec team. Now if you aren't the star or a starter kids quit.
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Mar 7, 2017
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Livinginthepast
Joined: Feb 17, 2016
Posts: 52
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Raider92 wrote:Specialization in sports is the number 1 reason no doubt numbers a down. They are down in all sports. Little League Baseball numbers are way down, Football numbers are down and so on and so on. Kids play one sport year round and maybe fit in another secondary sport in for fun. This is especially true at the larger schools. Baseball teams start off season workout in November and the feeling is if you don't go you won't make the varsity team. I know of a few wrestlers who no longer wrestler because they felt this way. They were afraid if they were at tournaments wrestling instead of a 7am indoor baseball practice in January that they would never make varsity.
Football coaches all over town tell kids not to wrestle, to lift with the team and work out all summer as a team. Drive by Pittsford in July and you will see a full padded practice going on.
In the late 80's and early 90's at Fairport our Football coach would say what are you doing in the Winter and Spring.....be a 3-sport athlete...not a 3-sport star....just an athlete. He knew we were not going to be pros and playing multiple sports made you a better athlete which in turn made the Football team better in the Fall. A lot of coaches nowadays have a deranged view of things and think playing one sport is the way to go. Everyone use to try and play 3-sports and if you did not make the school team you would play on a rec team. Now if you aren't the star or a starter kids quit.
It has definitely hurt a lot. Football and wrestling seem to go hand in hand, but not anymore. And the irony of the whole thing, is that colllege coaches will tell you they look for 2-sport athletes and 99.5% of or local high school athletes never go D1. It just doesn't happen. But as a society, most have fallen into the belief that 'more' is better than 'less' and that focusing on one sport is the way to go. I would have been bored back in the day. But that was a long time ago.
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