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Mar 7, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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"But as a society, most have fallen into the belief that 'more' is better than 'less' and that focusing on one sport is the way to go. I would have been bored back in the day."
Of course you would have been bored! Anyone who does the same thing all year long would be bored, unless they absolutely have no other interests. Remember, these aren't the kids deciding this......these are ADULTS deciding what kids should do, then getting a further endorsement from the kid's parents. It's actually kind of sad, because eventually they end up breaking the kid down and brainwashing him into thinking that's the only path to success.
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Mar 7, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Terrible, but parents are being sold a bag of goods by every trainer in every sport. My kids are multi sport athletes and one does not wrestle, he is a varsity runner in 8th grade. My knowledge of running is maybe equal to Forest Gumps understanding, but aside from the specialization aspect which I don't like, his HS coach has him running 7 days a week which as you can guess has taken a kid who has never been injured to one who has an ice pack on daily. I am not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but I do know if using a mouse can cause severe repetitive stress injuries, running every day has to be really bad. I have learned not to tell him what to do (this one quit wrestling so I don't want to make it about me), and he is seeing on his own, that one sport all the time is not good for his body (his words), but what about all the parents who are being told with one more lesson maybe "junior will get a scholarship". Kids should enjoy themselves, pick a sport they excel at (for them whatever they are best at), and do 1 or two more sports if only for their peace of mind. But now I am off topic lol.
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Mar 7, 2017
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BULL80
Joined: Nov 30, 2016
Posts: 57
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Falcs96 wrote:"But as a society, most have fallen into the belief that 'more' is better than 'less' and that focusing on one sport is the way to go. I would have been bored back in the day."
Of course you would have been bored! Anyone who does the same thing all year long would be bored, unless they absolutely have no other interests. Remember, these aren't the kids deciding this......these are ADULTS deciding what kids should do, then getting a further endorsement from the kid's parents. It's actually kind of sad, because eventually they end up breaking the kid down and brainwashing him into thinking that's the only path to success.
I think this is to much of a generalization, are there parents who push their kids into one sports yes. That being said I think you need to give credit to kids being smarter than you think. When kids see the success of others who wrestle year round and they love wrestling that motivates them more than anything. You can't deny the success that focusing on one sport has, you may not like it but it's more effective, if it wasn't the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, wouldn't draft kids after 1 year of college because they wouldn't be ready. You have to remember, kids are not watching the guy who placed 8th at NCAA and saying i want to be that guy. Kids are looking at the guys that placed first and saying I want to be him and lets face it guys like Gabe Dean are rare. The kids in NY are looking at kids Like Yianni, Vito, Greg D, Teemer.... how many kids that won states this year are truly 2 sport athletes and don't wrestle year round.
Also this assumption that just because you don't play organized high-school sports, you don't get exposure or play other sports is ridiculous. My son wrestles year round, he also plays basketball at the park, soccer with his cousins and siblings in the yard, back yard football etc...
I've said this before i'll say it again the biggest obstacle for wrestling is society, wrestling is a sport with no big pay off and more work than any other sport I've played or have been exposed to ( I never wrestled). in 200 years our society has gone from someone having a family and running a farm at the age of 15/16 to having everything done for them by their parents. We as a society have impeded our children's ability to grow and mature and be ready for life. Wrestling is an introduction to real life, its hard it takes a lot of work and you get out of it what you put into it but not always. Your failures making you stronger or they destroy you, and parents don't want their kids to experience real life till they are 20.... Just my opinion.
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Mar 7, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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"I think this is to much of a generalization, are there parents who push their kids into one sports yes. That being said I think you need to give credit to kids being smarter than you think. When kids see the success of others who wrestle year round and they love wrestling that motivates them more than anything. You can't deny the success that focusing on one sport has, you may not like it but it's more effective, if it wasn't the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, wouldn't draft kids after 1 year of college because they wouldn't be ready. You have to remember, kids are not watching the guy who placed 8th at NCAA and saying i want to be that guy. Kids are looking at the guys that placed first and saying I want to be him and lets face it guys like Gabe Dean are rare. The kids in NY are looking at kids Like Yianni, Vito, Greg D, Teemer.... how many kids that won states this year are truly 2 sport athletes and don't wrestle year round."
What's the success rate of kids who drop everything to concentrate on wrestling, only to under-achieve, burn out, or end up injury-riddled in college? Probably about 10%. That means that unless those kids really didn't like any other sports, about 90% of them may end up looking back with regret. I don't begrudge kids from specializing, if that helps them and they're fine with it. I could never do it though, and I won't push it on my kids either.
Plus, while these kids may love wrestling, nobody loves the training. That's what makes it so different from Lacrosse or Baseball. If you took a 3-sport athlete and told him he needs to specialize in one of them if he wants to keep up on an elite level, the last sport most would pick would be wrestling. That's why the sport struggles, unfortunately.
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Mar 7, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Oddly enough, my kids without my assistance (2 of 3, and the third doesn't wrestle because his dad is a horses A%!, lol) have chosen to wrestle first, because there is less "politics" in it. If you beat the guy in front of you, you get the spot, period end of story. Other sports are more subjective, and while Basketball is an interest for the non wrestler in my house, he is seeing how his peers are chosen not on talent but on who their parents know, as of now he is at the top of the feeding chain (MS Basketball isn't so rough when you are 6'3" lol), but he anticipates leaving Basketball soon because of the politics. The other two love lacrosse, and in our town that is a poison pill(parents in my town would stab your kid in the back if it would further their kid), so wrestling was an obvious choice for them. All of them loved football but in the current environment they are hearing so many bad things about it they have chose to do other sports in the fall or concentrate on wrestling (the two wrestlers). Soccer (my sport) chased them away early as the "club" coaches of good teams would make every practice for them hell, because they had other interests. None of them made it past 7th grade club soccer. Wrestling is the one fair sport, where if you are good you will be a "starter". Of all the sports that my kids have done it is the most team oriented. Other team sports players are not really a team (aside from football). The LAX community is full of people who think they are gods gift, and begrudge others who do well. In wrestling there has been many a match when the who team was matside for a kid who was wrestling his hardest. Win or lose the teammates are behind each other, they put too many hours into training not to be invested in each other. I think that is the selling point of this sport, hard work pays off.
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Mar 7, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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You make a good point on wrestling, but your school district sounds horrible.
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Mar 7, 2017
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BULL80
Joined: Nov 30, 2016
Posts: 57
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Falcs96 wrote:"I think this is to much of a generalization, are there parents who push their kids into one sports yes. That being said I think you need to give credit to kids being smarter than you think. When kids see the success of others who wrestle year round and they love wrestling that motivates them more than anything. You can't deny the success that focusing on one sport has, you may not like it but it's more effective, if it wasn't the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, wouldn't draft kids after 1 year of college because they wouldn't be ready. You have to remember, kids are not watching the guy who placed 8th at NCAA and saying i want to be that guy. Kids are looking at the guys that placed first and saying I want to be him and lets face it guys like Gabe Dean are rare. The kids in NY are looking at kids Like Yianni, Vito, Greg D, Teemer.... how many kids that won states this year are truly 2 sport athletes and don't wrestle year round."
What's the success rate of kids who drop everything to concentrate on wrestling, only to under-achieve, burn out, or end up injury-riddled in college? Probably about 10%. That means that unless those kids really didn't like any other sports, about 90% of them may end up looking back with regret. I don't begrudge kids from specializing, if that helps them and they're fine with it. I could never do it though, and I won't push it on my kids either.
Plus, while these kids may love wrestling, nobody loves the training. That's what makes it so different from Lacrosse or Baseball. If you took a 3-sport athlete and told him he needs to specialize in one of them if he wants to keep up on an elite level, the last sport most would pick would be wrestling. That's why the sport struggles, unfortunately.
I don't disagree with you I'm just saying we have a "copy cat culture" if someone sees something work they will follow suit. Every person is different and the kids that specialize and succeed their coaches and parents understand when a break or balance is needed.
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Mar 8, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Oddly enough my school district is average. I have heard similar stories from friends across Suffolk county. The running problem with one of my twins is common I hear. There are no cuts on Cross Country, and Track so coaches when they see a kid they want to keep are inclined to make him believe that if he/she runs all year they would be all county or all state. That is the carrot being held out for my kid, and he is seeing that there are consequences to such single minded dedication, but not without my wife and I pointing out the flaws in the coaches logic constantly. By the way what the kid is hearing and what I am told are two different things. When I talk to the coach running 7 days is optional, he sets out a schedule and kids do not have to participate, especially on weekends if they don't want to, also, if they are feeling an injury he will let them sit during practice or spend time in gym. That being said when I bring this to my kid he tells me that only "pussies" do that dad, so there is an out for the parent talking to the coach, and an underlying culture of "do this if you want to succeed". We in wrestling do the same thing with weight cutting. I have had many an argument with coaches regarding this, and even when I get them to agree with me, the message to the kids is the same.... cut cut cut. So even in my sport, coaches have two messages. On my high school team I constantly go around and make sure parents know what their kids are doing, and how they should do it. When I see a kid who gasses half way through the second period all the way through the third my suspicions arise. If there is to be weight management it starts with the parents eating healthy with junior (group suffering lol). Managed proportions, minimizing salt intake, lots of running or jump rope etc..., but that is too complicated and kids tend to prefer to crash a day or two before a meet because it is "easier", remember coach wants you at a certain weight. Many parents are complicit in their ignorance because it is less work for them, but the kids who crash tend to not do well in school. They simply cannot maintain their concentration when they are cutting, and it hurts their chances when college time comes. So if I am painting a picture of a horrible school I am sorry, I am trying to explain it from the perspective of the athlete and what they see. The stories about weight cutting everyone has seen, the stories about favoritism same, the coaches speaking differently to kids then they do to us same. My kids high school is highly regarded for academics, lacrosse (year in and year out consistently good or better), fencing (same), swimming and diving we are a powerhouse, and we are doing better in football and this year made it to the county championship for the first time in 28 years. We are competitive in many other sports and are trying our best. We have a new AD who is doing his level best to support our coaches and weed out the corruption of "pay for play " that occurs (a problem throughout long island not just us) in sports that coaches are involved in outside training and may show favoritism to one athlete over another. There is just a culture in high school sports that has to be exposed to sunlight every once in a while.
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Mar 8, 2017
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BULL80
Joined: Nov 30, 2016
Posts: 57
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Ohio struggling with participation too.
http://www.sanduskyregister.com/story/201703020047
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Mar 8, 2017
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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I said it 10 yrs ago. THIS SPORT DOES NOT NEED MORE PAID- CLUB COACHES. Actually, many of these so called Clubs really shouldnt be called "Clubs". By definition a Club collects dues and distributes accordingly-to it's members. Many of the 10 yrs to me were ALL FOR PROFIT Clubs. I called them out- I stood by my sentiment that Wrestling is and always will be the most inexpensive Sport if, using "old school" principles.
BACK IN THE DAY. Wrestlers had one pair of wrestling sneakers given by the school. White or black Tigers.- when they wore out they were taped from the medical kit. A wrestler needs a handful of moves which should be drilled repetitively - until he can do it in his sleep. He needs a few good work-out partners- He can go to open rooms- where he can get new work-out partners and another Coach's insight.
I laugh- at WHAT these Clinicians sell- WHAT these GREAT Coach's bring to their pupils. PARENTs are the victims of their own doing. Spending with frivolity at their kid's whim and by the sale of some of these profiteers. Ive seen Parents spend- so much money over the course of their kid's wrestling. That if they had just put it in a coffee can - they, would have saved enough for their kid's College for the first year...While expecting their kid to get a scholarship... SO SAD !!!
Two of the MOST successful Coaches on Long Island from the past. Joe Campo and Lou Giani. They taught basic fundamentals to HUNGRY poor and middle class kids. Kids who had not much and/or nothing- many from broken homes. Current longtime Coach Paul Gillespie housed kids from broken homes- and- just gave them wrestling, a place to eat -sleep and someone who cared.
THIS SPORT - like others. Is based primarily on these principles. DESIRE, DEDICATION and DISCIPLINE. Those who grasp it- succeed.
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On a side note: I ran a peewee program in an area not bred for CONTACT SPORTS. First year I started with 10 kids- three which were my girlfriend's..lol...4 nights a week. By my seventh year I had 30 kids. A handful did well in Section VIII. None won a Section title...yet, four of them wrestled through College. ALL learning to love this Sport and test their own intestinal fortitude. See, my primary goal as a peewee Coach was to let them be exposed to the Sport- I do not believe in pushing to become peewee champions. I believe in TEACHING the three D's and basic fundamentals. With desire, dedication and discipline a young man can learn ALL he needs to know- On the mat and off the mat.
BUT, my old school principles do not sell well in this current Society. Today , for the most part- imo- it is NOT based on the 3- D's and /or basic fundaments. It has turned against the former way of thinking. Between the GEEKs selling technology , single parent rearing , economic issues, indivdual entitlement, and many substituting and rewarding immediate gratification over hard work. Well, this Sport is almost done except, for areas where there is not much to do. PARTICIPATION in this sport will continue to drop- dramatically.
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Lastly, I do not want to see UPPER LEVEL PEEWEEs wrestling Varsity matches- ENOUGH !!!!. I am tired of seeing LAMBS put on the mat to fill weight classes. You can not fix FFT- by putting unprepared wrestlers on the mat. Kids today arent wired this way- they continue to lose- they QUIT !! Build from the bottom - up. Take the time to build Programs- If , a coach cant do this- imo- HE is a poor excuse for a Coach. BTW- What ever happened to that Phys Ed teacher who walked the Halls between periods recruiting kids- to wrestle ?????
Last edited by LImarty on Mar 8, 2017; edited 7 times in total
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Mar 8, 2017
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LATDROP
Joined: Dec 30, 2013
Posts: 81
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BULL80 wrote:LATDROP wrote:They're right we have to many weight classes. That was a failed experiment by the federation and we need to get rid of a couple. 99lbs is a junior high weight class and needs to go. They should also immediately do away with 7th graders on varsity. We do not have to follow federation weight classes and that's obviously because we have 99. If we don't rebuild the modified system soon we will continue to have low numbers. Make modified mean something.
Keeping 7th graders off varsity does not solve anything, modified will countinue to mean nothing until you have participation that comes from a youth program. From someone who had a 7th grader wrestle varsity I wouldn't join a modified program I would stay on the youth circuit and wrestle in PA/NJ. Most of the really good youth kids in NY don't even wrestle in NY during the year, fix the depth in the youth system and participation and then maybe you have a chance to have a good NYS JH circuit.
Actually it would because kids are being dragged up to fill weight classes. The issue is how poorly the modified system is run, it's a joke!. Pretty simple model PA and get rid of 7/8 graders on varsity and re vamp the whole system. Have real dual matches, tournaments. Our modified system is a disgrace! For all the Franky D's you have a ton more who have no business being on varsity. NY has slowly ran the well dry and it's only going to get worse. I'd even prefer to see round robbin formats on Saturdays instead a stupid 1hr buss rise twice a week in hopes of getting 2 matches...
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Mar 8, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Marty, problem is what you are seeing in wrestling has already happened in other sports, and the genie is out of the bottle no putting it back. When on LI you were a vocal critic of Craig, and for every person who agrees with you there may be two who don't. I don't complain about private clubs they bring more good then bad, even in other sports like lacrosse. BOTC is a lacrosse forum and there are people constantly complaining about private clubs especially Mike Chanenchuck (founder of Express lacrosse) who is a neighbor of mine. In the end though there are people lining up 3-4 teams deep at every age group to sign up for what he is teaching. You and I could discuss the merits of such, but in the end, Express lacrosse will still be there no matter what we decide. Same with club wrestling, it is done well in PA and NJ, and in NY we are still working out the bugs... the only problem I have with club "anything" is because they have overhead (rent is 24/7) they can't have income seasonally and they prey on parents insecurities telling them they have to train year round if they want success, parents not wanting to deny their little babies anything acquiesce and the single sport athlete is born, even before the kid knows if he "loves" what he is doing. They just can't remember a time when they didn't do this thing, that's why many continue. My oldest was somewhat successful in HS (he is not so in college lol not yet at least), but he chooses to wrestle not just because he is good at it but because he loves it. True that succes breeds interest, but my younger son went from being a "kid" champion to an eighth grader who couldn't win a match at counties, should he quit because of no success? Of course not he to is learning to love wrestling and is taking the lumps in stride. If he is successful or not his mom and I will still have the same opinion of him as we do as long as he tries his hardest. It is hard being a parent and trying to figure out where your kid will best thrive and in all the confusion of growing up we forget that they have to live their lives when we are done raising them...
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Mar 8, 2017
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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bigkidsdad.
I hear ya. SPORT has many more "cures" than outsiders really do know. It helps - LIFE- issues. Anything that keeps a kid motivated, conscious, and happy are what WE all want. I guess Im just inflamed at PROFITEERs who thrive on the ignorance of the unknowing and on Coaches who really have NO TIME to give a 100% effort - those who need to be paid- and- not give back. I guess we ALL can agree. If, you do not give 100%+ - then please, do not do it to supplement your income. Drive a Taxi !!!
btw. My opinion- about a certain person did change somewhat. Especially, when he started DOING - traveling, making it affordable, and giving back without compensation. My criticism of this certain party imo was justified at the time because I heard of the outrageous costs and unsubstanciated claims of his coaching prowess/success. ALL in the name of his own personal financial reward.
Please, think about those High School Coaches past and present that spend EVERY DAY with that wrestler 4-5 months a year for a minimal salary- IMO- the Club Coach (not all) panders and profits off of the High School Coach's time and effort on the mat with those wrestlers.
PA/ NJ.....yes, they have guys like Jack Cuvo and others who take these kids from peewees- all the way up. They have leagues- They promote the Sport with doing the extra work to maintain an assembly line. Long Island- has pockets of this . Though, the Sociological - Economics is not the same as PA/ NJ. Kids on Long Island have MORE distractions to maintain the same focus as their western neighbors.
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Mar 9, 2017
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BULL80
Joined: Nov 30, 2016
Posts: 57
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https://www.facebook.com/askrenbros/videos/1495570227129154/
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Mar 14, 2017
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matburn
Site Admin
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 3458
Location: WNY |
bigkidsdad wrote:Some facts:
1963 - 12 weight classes
1973 - 13 weight classes
1983 - 14
1993 - 14
2003 - 15
2011 - 15
2013 - 15 current weight classes
In the 1980s, 91 & 250 did not count for duals in some leagues & they were optional in others. So often there were just 12 dual meet weights.
In the 1950s & 60s, college had 10 weights, but often only 8 were used in dual meets: 115 & 191 were optional.
Similarly, in the 1940s & 1950s, HS had 10 weights for duals & 12 for tournaments... 95 & 175 were optional.
Last edited by matburn on Mar 31, 2017; edited 1 time in total
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