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Mar 3, 2017
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132nomore
Joined: Jan 3, 2015
Posts: 61
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Too many weigh classes. State committee is looking at reducing the number of weights from 15 to 13. This would reduce forfeits. In my opinion we should combine 99 and 106 and make it 103. 99 is not need, you lookbat the weight and most kids are middle school kids brought up to fill in line ups. The second weight they "should" eliminate 195 and go 170, 185, 215 and 275.
Opinions or Can anyone shed any light on this ?
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Mar 3, 2017
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backsuplex
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 554
Location: Back to the Future |
The only weight class the state has control over is 99. NY is pretty much the only one that has it.
The high school federation sets the rest and they are standard across the country.
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Mar 3, 2017
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matburn
Site Admin
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 3458
Location: WNY |
Actually, they can do whatever they want. Michigan still uses the old weights from 2011:
http://www.trackwrestling.com/predefinedtournaments/VerifyPassword.jsp?tournamentId=249801009
https://www.mhsaa.com/News/Blog-From-the-Director/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/364/Weighing-Change
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Mar 3, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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Totally ridiculous. Instead of trying to market the sport better so more kids will join, they feel it's a better idea to mask the lack of kids they currently have and just give the illusion that the sport is full. That'll grow things! Good to have a goal of catering to crappy programs.
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Mar 4, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Falc I am bouncing back and forth on the matter. I am new to wrestling (since my College freshman son got into wrestling in 2nd grade, and no HS experience with wrestling), so I don't claim any "super knowledge" from year past lol. My gut told me "bad idea" but looking through years of wrestling in the 60's and 70's when the baby boomers were hitting the high schools there were less weight classes, schools were packed and wrestling weight classes increased 1 per decade or so. As usual with any problem the solution came far after the problem. Now school enrollments are down and we are having many forfeits. A quick look through matches in Suffolk county the forfeits were like a bell curve with more (not a lot more) at higher weights but similar numbers at lower weights. One of our section reps on the island said they were discussing removing two weight classes. If they are going to do this I recommend using michigans system which will reduce one weight class and it doesnt seem to be a problem there. I believe it will happen, so question for me is can we take one step at a time? If not how do you recommend fixing the problem of forfeits?
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Mar 4, 2017
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Heisenberg
Joined: Nov 30, 2016
Posts: 157
Location: WNY |
If they went to 13, they could use the weight classes from the early eighties, minus 98 lbs. That would be 105, 12,19,26,32,38,45,55,67,77, 215 and 285( it used to be 250). Add in 195 as an in between and you have 13.
Id like to see a couple less weight classes, at least give it a try. I graduated in 1982 in a class of 350. My youngest will graduate from the same school next year in a class of 290. In our area, enrollment seems to be down. Thats why, to me , a couple less weight classes makes sense. If it seems to make the matter worse, you can always go back to 15.
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Mar 4, 2017
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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VOICE OF REASON
Unfortunately, the decision makers are RIGHT on this one.
The sport is in decline in New York. It makes perfect sense to eliminate some weights. No one likes change- especially, the dinosaurs- like me . Though, it makes more sense to go to a National weight for ALL States. Even the VA Beach Nationals has eliminated 106 for seniors due, to yearly small brackets.
Wrestling in NYS- in one of the largest sections- Section XI has had massive FFTs this past season in duals. The sport is not generating enough turn-out and the chain has been broken for nearly 15 years. Progressively, programs which had the assembly line production are no longer sustaining the sociological effects. Replacement of wrestlers at each weight is no longer happening. Lose a senior -fill with a junior is so uncommon today. The teams all around the state are made up of a majority of underclassmen- the underclassmen who are not starters usually quit the team the following year(s) . Where are the JV teams ??? There are a handful of Teams around the State that can produce numbers- those are the ones who are doing the winning. example- Long Beach, Wantagh, etc. etc. yet, even the Top programs have visible holes in their line-ups.
Lastly, COST. It is only a matter of time that the State Tourney gets revised. So, not only are weight classes in jeopardy- the whole dynamics of this sport / transportation cost- insurance cost- The whole spectrum of NYS - HS contact sports will be over evaluated and imo with an eventual finality. YES, the sky is falling !!!!!
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Mar 4, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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The sport is dying because the coaching and programs stink......not because there are too many weight classes. Is the sport dying in Long Beach and Monroe Woodbury? Is it dying in Wantagh or Hilton? How about Mattituck, where the student body is about 400?
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Mar 4, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Numbers are down in every sport, numbers of students are down period. There will always be exceptional programs and always mediocre and weak ones in every sport. Question is whether declining numbers is because of poor branding of our sport or because more and more schools are competing for less kids? Yes small schools like locust valley and mattituck do more with less year after year and if the other schools had the same sensibilities we would all be better off but that is not the case and it never was. There were always great wrestling schools poor ones and ones inbetween, what we need is to make this sport interesting to the people who aren't our regulars. In my mind the dual meet does that best. Hyping school matches and having full fanfare for the audiences to enjoy the event in a reasonable amount of time will bring more to this sport then we can know. Just MHO.
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Mar 4, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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Not interested in hearing about numbers being down, when some top programs are coming from small schools.
It's all coaching. So now Locust Valley has to put a kid on the bench because the opposing coach is a gym teacher who took the wrestling job for a few extra bucks? There are wrestlers out of college looking for coaching jobs, and they're blocked by these guys. That's the biggest problem in the sport.
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Mar 5, 2017
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Lol, patronage jobs occur in just about every place there is a union. The fact that you "don't want to hear it" doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and someone won't look you right in the eye without blinking and say "no nothing like that occurs here". For sports, any sport in high school the first pool they look to is teachers in district, then teachers out of district, then if no one else can fulfill the position do they look outwards for someone to help. Simple rule, may be unfair, but it is how it is done. Anyway that doesn't resolve whether there is a problem with forfeits, and if so how to deal with it which is where this thread began on the LI forum. We can agree til the both of us are exhausted that we need better coaches. I might one up you on we need better teachers too, but that isn't solving the problem. Falc, I said I am new, and I couldn't understand why people don't love this sport as I do, and with about a year or so of thinking about it I began to understand. I didn't love this sport when I was first introduced to it about 10-12 years ago, in fact I thought it was dirty, base, and appealed to the lowest common denominator. Time went on and I began to see a change in my son, maybe me and I started to really like it, to now I am OC over this sport. Like anything that is worth having wrestling is a refined (yes it is true) taste. The finer points evade most at first, so how do we grab them. First people are "homers" they need someone or something to cheer for. I only recently graduated to enjoying college wrestling because I know who I am looking at when I see an event on TV, I am more interested. I root for the boys I knew from wrestling my son, to our acquaintances, to the names I only heard from a distance. The more I watch the more I know the more interesting it becomes. To understand why people like or dislike our sport we must first accept that there are things that even we do not like. Long long long long events which are a testament to a viewers constitution as much as the wrestlers, and forfeits or byes degrade the sport. Article after article on this subject have pointed to the dual meet as a salvation for our sport. It emphasizes "team" rivalries which are simple enough for people to cheer for one side or another (remember NFL uses similar strategy to get viewers interest, and they have expanded to "fantasy football" when they weren't getting enough viewership from local audiences). Simple dressing up of the match with an announcer on a microphone introducing the wrestlers and explaining the difference between a decision, major, a pin or a tech during the matches help the audience understand what is going on with the score. Finally the dual is done in an hour and a half tops which is all todays generation has to give to something they don't love yet. We have begun this in my school which is a weak wrestling school. Turn out has been good to very good. The announcer is a parent of a graduated wrestler who does an awesome job of explaining what is going on and involving the audience. We will probably add cheer leaders next year too. Now the purists here are probably reaching for rolaids or tums but I have to tell you we are generating interest, and we aren't very good. If we could turn a few more wins, and maybe have one or two more "stud" athletes in our line up we would have the the local fire marshals interest.
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Mar 5, 2017
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132nomore
Joined: Jan 3, 2015
Posts: 61
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Falcs96 wrote:Not interested in hearing about numbers being down, when some top programs are coming from small schools.
It's all coaching. So now Locust Valley has to put a kid on the bench because the opposing coach is a gym teacher who took the wrestling job for a few extra bucks? There are wrestlers out of college looking for coaching jobs, and they're blocked by these guys. That's the biggest problem in the sport.
I agree that some schools don't have great coaches
but most districts only hire school employees so unless the college grads are teachers
They don't stand much of a chance of landing HC job - they could volunteer time
But at the end of the day any sport lives and dies with the competitors or lack of
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Mar 5, 2017
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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All fair posts, but here's the problem I have.......
Getting rid of weight classes doesn't solve the sport's problem. It only masks it. And I am NOT in favor of giving kids less mat time just to solve some optical dilemma that makes adults feel better.
And what the heck will combining 99 and 106 into 103 accomplish?? The JV system in this state is weak, so now you want more kids to be less developed? Without 99, you may not have had a Yianni/Vito OT finals in 2013.
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Mar 5, 2017
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chickenwing
Joined: Jan 31, 2005
Posts: 71
Location: Southern Tier |
The teams with full rosters are full because they have successful youth and/or modified programs. Mickey Mouse could be the varsity coach, and they'd still have full rosters (unless of course it's the varsity coach running the youth & modified).
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Mar 6, 2017
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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Falc,
YOU are objecting to yourself. Today, not yesterday- 96 lbs was a relevant weight class. Today, at the High School level- the Varsity level there are FFTs many at 96 lbs. WHY ?? Most high school aged kids are not less than 100 lbs. WEIGHT CERTIFICATIONs prevent a 100 lb kid to lose weight. Back in the day without weight certs. many upper classmen wrestled 96 lbs.
where you contradict yourself- there is a room for these kids (pre -HS) on a B Team or JV Team....this is the REAL problem. There isnt enough participation at most schools to fill 2- Teams and/or JV...SO, Super mighty mouse joins the Varsity.
your Yianni / Vito comment is ridiculous. One year later - they, still would be recognized.
7th/8th and 9th grade SUPER STAR BEETLEs means exactly what ???? BTW. If, they are that good at 100 lbs- then beating the 105 lb kid would be in play . Right ????
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Build PROGRAMs- not just a yearly Team. PROGRAMs start at the peewee level- to the MS- to the HS....CYCLICALLY, this should be the pattern. Unfortunately, today- the participation in CONTACT SPORTs has been in decline for the past 30 years- and- it is almost at it's peak - today. So, to generate interest and recover the past structure is literally impossible. Today's society will not allow for it.
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It takes one good Coach 4- 8 yrs to develop a Program. It takes one transient Coach 1yr to destroy that Program.
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