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NYS dual meet


subway101
Joined: Jan 17, 2013
Posts: 70
choppy wrote:
This is a bowl of negativity that only some people eat. Sitting back and doing nothing but whining is not progressive. There was better times in wrestling but whining never fixed anything.


The problem is that all Marty can do. Never once over all the years has he offered one constructive suggestion in order to improve the sport. All the bluster and pontificating of wrestling in the 70s on LI is like someone with dementia that is reliving the same 10 minute memory over and over again.

It is an insult to every kid, coach and parent that are out there day and night and weekend working hard to improve. A very small handful of wrestlers will ever get the chance to be elite. Most get to be a part of something and work towards a common goal as a team. So many more life lessons are gained from wrestling more than any other sport. Unfortunately for Marty, he just doesn't get it. And that is very, very sad.


quickpick
Joined: Jan 9, 2015
Posts: 284
LImarty wrote:
quickpick,

Sometimes biased opinions of doom and gloom have merit.

WRESTLING today in NYS - on many mats is an eyesore. Pin or be pinned. Forfeits of weights is common...and numbers are down.

Unfortunately, I am too old to pump oxygen into it. The COACHES who knew how to build it- are- almost all gone. This year Wantagh, HS should be crowned the best team in NYS....and this is a modestly sized HS for Long Island standards...but, the REAL reason Wantagh maintains relevance ...is, their peewee program which maintains former native wrestlers and having arguably the BEST HS COACH ever out of Nassau Co.- Paul Gillespie. Gillespie has always made Teams better. BTW. Coach Gillespie is an early '70s HS graduate..lol.

Back to the point. Understandably , it is nice to be part of any Team that is crowned a Champion. I was that fortunate to be on two of those Teams in 1975 . jmo- THE PRACTICALITY- of sending Teams to a DUAL format with all the jostling of line-ups/ forfeits etc. etc. Well, it is kind of unnecessary for me. This Sport in NYS - today- has more significant problems that should be addressed.

ps....It has only been 15 yrs of biased opinion. ; }


Marty,

I am not arguing that numbers are down and many dual meets are riddled with forfeits. I can see the results. I would also never argue that Paul Gillespie and Wantagh have had great runs and will likely have another one this year. I just don't understand how you can look at this as a negative thing? This encourages teams to fill their line-ups and recruit kids to participate. This encourages coaches to start youth programs with the hope that they can one day compete for a dual meet title. This tournament will highlight teams with full line-ups and tough wrestlers in many weight classes. It will also allow the majority of the athletes in these line-ups to compete for a state title that they would not otherwise have the chance to. I know you love your 70's wrestling and I'm not taking anything away from that. I simply can't understand how you can't see the benefit to this?


mikef272002
Joined: Dec 9, 2009
Posts: 211
Building a successful program starts at the youth level, getting the right coaches in there, letting the kids have fun and pushing your better wrestlers to do a couple months extra work after the season. It's a marathon, not a race and unfortunately some youth coaches/parents think the harder they push a kid, the more tournaments they go to, and the longer they stay on the mat during the offseason will get them to a state title quicker. Unfortunately, most of these kids quit before they ever reach varsity. I don't know the stats, but take Falconer for example, They have always had a successful youth program for a small school, every year getting roughly 70 kids from K-6th grade, the varsity is able to fill it's roster year after year, but even with a successful youth program, and the fun they have, they still don't get a high percentage of kids to the varsity. Maybe 50% - 60% make it to varsity. So imagine a school that has roughly 30 kids on the youth program and the parents and coaches pushing these kids hard, I bet 20%- 30% make it to varsity. If we want to fill rosters we need to learn how to build the youth programs and how to keep them in the sport. The state duals may help a little, but there's a bigger issue.


Wrestle10
Joined: Jan 4, 2008
Posts: 233
once again Marty you show complete idiocy in your views, only the best should be the ones wrestling? you don't care about the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier wrestlers. Wrestling is a team sport. Do you recognize names like John Smith, Tom Brands, Cael Sanderson? I know you do. Have you ever watched a college dual meet? yeah that whole team thing doesn't matter at all to them does it? they don't care at all about the team aspect, there are never 1000's of people screaming their head off for their TEAM to win the dual meet. They don't have world TEAM competitions do they? nope nobody cares about that team aspect. There aren't any national high school level team competitions are there. Having kids as part of a team, going out and securing bonus points for your team, having a kid step up and step out onto the mat against a stud and not get pinned in a dual meet to save your team points. These are the things that make the team portion of our sport great not just focusing on the elite 1%. Man I can't stand pidgeon brained elitists like you.


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
WOW.

I GET BOMBARDED FOR NOT SEEING THE SIGNIFICANCE.

QUICK/ MIKE. I can adhere to your opinions. It isn't NEGATIVE to have an opposing view to the other posters.

BTW. In the late '90s and '00s not only did I start a peewee program for 7 yrs- WE- supported many wrestlers on trips to New Jersey, Virginia Beach and Upstate also, work pursuant to increasing the value of NYS wrestlers to College Coaches. Kids who filled positions and got scholarships. So, I would think- I did more to help this sport in a ten yr period then many of you who usually have a 4 yr window- then disappear. My FLO experience helped NYS wrestlers.

Remember this I am a JV quitter.....who probably knows more about this Sport- then you will ever know....lol.

Society has softened the context of contact sport. When duals fail to proceed without having one bloody nose...lol...makes me wonder if, this Sport has a future. HS Football will be the first to go.

or, everything is just so good...its great....it's the best. Not from my seat in the bleachers.


Livinginthepast
Joined: Feb 17, 2016
Posts: 52
quickpick wrote:
Umm....Pennsylvania does have a dual meet state championship. Also nothing further divides the elite more than having an emphasis only on tournaments. Why would some kids even go out for the sport if they knew they weren't ever going to win anything. Also, I don't think there will be many Ffts at the dual meet state championship. The majority of the teams have full lineups and probably won't dodge much. What better example for how dual meets should run than that? Welcome back Marty, always love to hear your opinion! Even if it is the same stale, biased opinion we've heard the last 20 years.
Marty is right on the money. Go out and really watch some high school wrestling in NYS and you will see what has happened to the talent base, etc. In Section V, we have excellent wrestlers dodging other wrestlers (coaches support this) to protect their records, etc. I've watched it 7 times this year where there could have been excellent matchups, and there was bumping or dodging. Case in point: last weekend, Fairport's 182 should have wrestled Victor's best 182 wrestler, match was not in doubt, Fairport puts out 182 starter, and Victor moves their 182 up. Why? So Fairport guy pins quickly. Why didn't this match happen? And as far as forfeits go: rampant in the sport. All over the place, just check the box scores. It's terrible. Marty may be off his rocker sometimes, but I think his opinion here is not stale....pretty darn accurate.


Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
Dodging match-ups has been going on for over 30 years!!! It's not a new thing. The top wrestlers always went up or down to avoid the studs, and some poor shlub who was a notch above JV was sent out there to get his clock cleaned. It doesn't have as much to do with points as it does that with the sectionals coming up, sometimes a coach doesn't want another wrestler to get too familiar with his kid's style when he's probably going to be facing him anyway in less than a month. It's just a fact that the top coaches don't like those kinds of match-ups until the sectionals start. ESPECIALLY in a dual that's already decided, and there's nothing to really wrestle for.

But none of this has a single thing to do with the State dual meet tournament, which has fans buzzing which is what the sport desperately needs. And for Marty to bring Paul Gillespie into this to prove his point is hilarious. NOBODY loves team accomplishments more than Paul. He's got a house filled with team hardware that he's most proud of. Why do you think he's brought his roster to the UE Duals every year? He could just as easily throw Vines and Loew in a car and drive them to a Jersey tournament that weekend if he didn't care about team success, and only dwelled on his stars. Ridiculous. You think the grinders of the sport that make teams strong would even care about this sport if nobody emphasized TEAM? Most of them know full well they're not going to become a state champ, so what else are they supposed to invest themselves in? Spending the winter patting stud teammates on the back?


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
Falc,

the current decline in Long Island wrestling is not cyclical- it has been going on now for nearly 2 decades. I could go to any tournament in both counties- on any given Saturday prior to 2002...after 2002- it was only Suffolk...after 2005...it was to Upstate Tournies such as the Eastern States, Windsor, Kohl.

yes, there is still some top notch wrestlers- yet, the distance between the seconds and thirds keeps getting more profound. For the last 10 yrs it has been pretty easy to know the Sectional / State semi finals and finals match-ups...in June.

Back to the subject. What you are not getting in my lament over DUAL CHAMPIONSHIPs. I remember Ryan Patrovich / Islip. at the UE Duals- I think he wrestled one match in two days. The juggling of line-ups, the forfeits, the lambs put on the mat. Well, this doesn't help anyone. This only strokes egos. This is only about the size of your manhood.

Wantagh going 5 hrs to Syracuse to be called the BEST Team in NYS W-R-E-S-T-L-I-N-G. ??? Com'on ??? I think it would make more sense entering a Tournament in Easton or Nazareth PA..or at the Shoreline in New Jersey. You only can get better- by wrestling the best.

Being the BEST Team in New York means exactly what ???? You're the 15th best Team in PA ???

make the sport better.....TEACH- RAISE THE LEVEL- this is what Paul Gillespie, Giani, Stanbro, Jacotout, Campo, based their Coaching careers on. - For the last 20 yrs - most Coaches are transient- many Coaches are not schooled themselves in ALL positions- many find it easier to be friends with their Team than to actually, demand results. Ive seen it. So, please do not question it.

JMO- Dual Championships - are unnecessary. Look at the costs- the travel- etc. etc.

BTW- This is a Section V Forum. Do you know how many years that I had to listen on how Spencerport was the BEST Team in NYS.....and how it infuriated me knowing that Suffolk/ Nassau had a Team or two that would dismiss Spencerport, Johnson City, and all the rest....I argued it on the Forum yet, I knew it was smarter for Long Island Teams not to waste a trip to Union Endicott. Maybe, just change the format. Have the winner from north of the Tappen Zee- meet the LI Champ at intermission or prior to a College match. More practical- more logical.

The SIGNIFICANCE= a waste of time and money.

Last edited by LImarty on Jan 25, 2018; edited 1 time in total


BJB7
Joined: Dec 13, 2007
Posts: 375
The push for a sanctioned state dual tournament began decades ago in New York and went on for so long with so little momentum that veteran coach Paul Gillespie gave up hope on it.

The Empire State recognized dual championship teams each year. Those titles, though, were determined not on a mat in competition but rather on paper with rankings. Over time, coaches around the state watched participation numbers slide and interest in dual meets wane as the team competitions took a backseat to preparing high-end talent for individual postseason runs.

All of this contributed to the surprise that floored Gillespie a couple years ago when he walked into a Section 8 coaches meeting and heard the news: New York was planning to hold the state’s first high school dual championship event in 2018.

“They’ve been pushing for a state meet for dual meets for, I’d say, the last 30 years,” said Gillespie, the New York Hall of Fame head coach from Wantagh High School. “It’s long, long overdue.

“I never anticipated they’d do this. When I found out, I told the guys on the team and they were overwhelmed.”

Gillespie is thrilled it’s finally happening this year when he has a team that’s capable of challenging for a title this weekend in Syracuse at the inaugural New York state duals.

“We have a really good team and there are a bunch of good teams in the state,” he said. “It’s going to be a great tournament on Saturday. … This is the true test of a team. If you can win something like that, that’s something special.”


LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
Fact is. Paul Gillespie has been known to travel to Nassau Co. HSs that are prepared or on the cusp to fire. such as Long Beach, Oceanside, and recent years to Wantagh.

Him being in favor of having a NYS Dual meet Championship- does not in anyway put forth my opinion - that, NYS Wrestling needs more a transfusion of oxygen- more than it does need a Dual Championship.

I guess- 5 hrs, bus costs, hotel costs, are now considered practical....lol.

Personally, I think FIGURING out how to keep Teams full- with JVs- and peewee feeder programs should be the concern of ALL NYS HS Coaches.


Wrestle10
Joined: Jan 4, 2008
Posts: 233
You must get a lot of nosebleeds sitting so high up on your mountain looking down on all the rest of us insignificant nothings in the wrestling world. I'm surprised you're not coaching the Olympic team with all your knowledge and background. Just for your information I have been coaching at the same school for over 12 years and have been part of some amazing dual meet victories and losses against the top teams in the state (yes even Long Island Teams). Being the #1 team in NYS means a hell of a lot to a lot of people and yes even people on Long Island which is why they are making the trip to Syracuse to prove it.


jessefeffer
Joined: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 184
His narrative is now revealed. We are so good that this is a waste of our time. Not that this is good for NYS wrestling. It's that it is beneath the quality of LI wrestling to compete with any teams from the rest of the state. The stated facts his gold standard of HS wrestling coaches has been in favor of this for decades, is happy to see it happen and can sense the excietement within the Wantagh wrestling room doesn't fit this narrative. We'll let the results speak as to which view of this new NYS Championship is correct. An injection of interest into a diminishing sport or a waste of time.

Btw, how can you decry that the sport has become all about winning and then turn around and say that it should be all about making champions? It's like debating my wife.

Not that it means much to this debate, but Falconer will beat Mount Sinai because Mount Sinai is more like Grand Island's lineup. You read it here first.


Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
You're just as bad for believing his narrative. LI does not at all think like Marty. They don't think anything is "beneath" them, they just want an opportunity to
compete on the mat and not be told that they're not good enough because a bunch of guys in an upstate boardroom told them they weren't. The same guys who have Rocky Point unseeded. That too will be dispelled quickly.

Point is, do not take one moron's opinion as representative of an entire section. LI teams have been traveling upstate much more often than vice versa. They are not "above" anything.
Could Falconer beat Mt Sinai? Sure they can. Because the geniuses who decide what is what in this sport have the most ridiculous system of seeding ever.

We need better youth and feeder programs throughout the state? DUH! Who doesn't know that? They're's nothing profound about that statement. And it also has nothing to do with the pros and cons of
dual meets. So because duals "expose" the fact that the youth programs throughout the state are not up to par with all the holes in the line-ups, the answer is no more dual meet tournaments? That's the dumbest
thing I've ever heard! Dual meets are a BAROMETER for what the problem is in the sport, not the reason for it! That's like telling cops to stop arresting people, because it's depressing to see high crime rate data.


quickpick
Joined: Jan 9, 2015
Posts: 284
Falcs96 wrote:
You're just as bad for believing his narrative. LI does not at all think like Marty. They don't think anything is "beneath" them, they just want an opportunity to
compete on the mat and not be told that they're not good enough because a bunch of guys in an upstate boardroom told them they weren't. The same guys who have Rocky Point unseeded. That too will be dispelled quickly.

Point is, do not take one moron's opinion as representative of an entire section. LI teams have been traveling upstate much more often than vice versa. They are not "above" anything.
Could Falconer beat Mt Sinai? Sure they can. Because the geniuses who decide what is what in this sport have the most ridiculous system of seeding ever.

We need better youth and feeder programs throughout the state? DUH! Who doesn't know that? They're's nothing profound about that statement. And it also has nothing to do with the pros and cons of
dual meets. So because duals "expose" the fact that the youth programs throughout the state are not up to par with all the holes in the line-ups, the answer is no more dual meet tournaments? That's the dumbest
thing I've ever heard! Dual meets are a BAROMETER for what the problem is in the sport, not the reason for it! That's like telling cops to stop arresting people, because it's depressing to see high crime rate data.


Great to see you back Falcs! Well said. By the way Marty, I love how you claim to know more about the sport than I do with no clue of my credentials....If you weren't capable of finishing high school wrestling, you have no merit to anything that you have/will do in wrestling. If you can't get on the mat to show it, then you don't really know it.


choppy
Joined: May 3, 2016
Posts: 93
Boo hoo
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