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Feb 8, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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bigkids,
You are sooo REGIMENTED in your thinking. Maybe, the WILDCARD system has flaws??? Ya think ??? You accept the Sectional format and fail to see the difference in strength by Section.
Don't you think it might be easier for a kid from Bum-Funk to go 40-0 than it is from Section XI....The only POINTs that should matter. IS- MIKE BOSCO beat 3- Section Champs who went to Albany -and- HE didn't. This alone should have had Bosco jump over the 3- Sectional Champs and their points would have to be scrutinized for wildcard position- not Bosco's. IT'S "ONE" STATE. The sectional thing is "smoke n mirrors".
The SECTIONAL FORMAT- is not indicative of where the STRENGTH in the State is coming from....it hasn't for over 40 yrs. Section VII and Section X were once in the same Sectional ONE DIVISION Tournament and they had the same representation as Section VIII and Section XI...THIS ALONE IS A COMEDY !!!!!This is what EVERYONE accepted as being ok...LOL..!!! THIS ALONE IS A TRAGEDY !!! They (VII-X) have a round robin tourney to qualify for Albany - then, it was Syracuse.. Section XI/ Section VIII has Leagues /Qualifiers- then their Section Tourney....too funny , that anyone would even attempt to minimalize a wrestler- and using Bosco's points as the reason.
A real state Tournament would never omit a kid like Mike Bosco. A BALANCED/EQUAL REPRESENTATION Sectional Tournament.... always will.
Anyone, that uses clarity without bias....would never accept such "flaws".
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Feb 8, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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I guess the problem you have is with two sections and there is a problem there, however those sections get no wild cards to the D1 tournament. So at best you are complaining about two spots. Your biased assumption is that they would go to LI. That is one point I disagree with you on. No system is perfect even one that just counts up "points" as you define them, here is an example. Here on LI we have schools that are more wrestling dynasties then others. Huntington, Longwoood, Wantagh, MacArthur, Brentwood have long cherished histories. Rocky Point, Hauppauge have earned their stars because of consistency of coaching for the last 15/20 years (many more great schools just highlighting a handful). These schools have A.D.'s that are involved, booster clubs, and alumni support that help with money and bring out crowds for home matches. They are savvy and have good schedules that maximize "points" and a school board that has allowed exceptional 7th graders to wrestle varsity. My school, and many weak wrestling programs do not know what to do. We had a kid like Nick Picininni and pulled the plug on him right before counties (7th graders were not allowed to wrestle varsity). We have traveled to Connecticut since my friend John was a state Champion in the early '80's to "minimize" our effective points for that tournament. All that and we never traveled out of Suffolk county to get "points" from beating D2 or other section placers (this is slowly changing but to my point). Another friends son on my team wasn't as lucky as son to be the dominant wrestler at his weight in the state. He was behind Piccinni for the first few years, and when he finally outgrew Nicks shadow by going up a few weight classes he wasn't able to accumulate enough points to make states as a wild card. Year after year we watched as kids he was better then go up and he stayed home. His senior year he finally had enough points to make the journey to Albany but lost in the quarters to an inside trip with seconds left and that kid didn't have enough points to go so my friends kid couldn't "jump" him. This story isn't as unique as I once thought. Most high school coaches do not maximize points for their kids only the "wrestling" schools and unlike college kids don't get to choose where they go. A purely point based system is only fair if everyone has the ability to access the same resources, right now that's impossible so there will still be sad stories. My friends kids still wrestles now at college, he is good not great, but wrestling has taught him to have the discipline to achieve at an Ivy League institution, so all is good. You will never create a system that is even, and if you truly love the sport more then being a "homer" you would see that great wrestling comes from all places. My kids are big and when we wrestle out of state we see NJ state champs, PA state champs, but the kids we worry about the most are Michigan kids with no accolades by their name. There are studs hidden in every corner including section X, and VII and having two spots go to them doesn't seem to be such a big price for people who love the sport, maybe our next superstar is there who knows. Until then I disagree with you on many levels, but one major one is that because kids from Suffolk have to work so hard to get to states is one reason we are so good, swords cut both ways (same reason I worry when my boys hit an accoladeless wrestler from Michigan, it's so hard to be a state champ there and they don't travel much so they don't have all the titles). I doubt that you and I will see eye to eye on this, suffice to say even by your standards you have to see the system is less flawed then before, for my part I have a dog in the show still so I will do my best for him, be happy that we live in Suffolk where he is challenged at every match to be better and not sweat it if this one doesn't make the big show, there are more important things in life.
Rob Araneo
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Feb 8, 2018
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quickpick
Joined: Jan 9, 2015
Posts: 284
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Good post BigKid,
Essentially, the things that are unfair also contribute to the success of LI in wrestling. Same can be said about the college 197 discussion. What has been a tough line-up to crack, has also made Rasheed much better. Wrestling with blue chip recruits and the likes of Bo Nikal and company has likely had a huge influence on his abilities. Those who stick it out will get better. No one will ever argue the talent pool on Long Island but in order to succeed there, kids are forced to wrestle year round and don't have to go far to find a good drill partner. There are benefits to it and there are kids who get left behind every year who should have probably gone. It's not a perfect system but its a lot better than sending 1/weight class and having 12 man brackets.
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Feb 8, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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Goodness !!
Maybe, I just look at it from a 16 or 17 yr old's brain.
You cant be your best at every tournament for various reasons Devon Brown, Lance Wade, Sean McCabe come to mind...... Joe Sasso/ Johnson City and Mike Bosco/ John Glenn etc. etc. also, come to mind.
Until most of you UNDERSTAND....that this is ONE State. It is not a Pizza cut into Sections. ONE State would have the BEST 3-4 from each Region in a REAL State Tournament. This would eliminate all the "stupid" complexities that require points- to receive a wildcard and it would benefit stronger sections- and not reward weaker sections.
NO WAY.....will you can convince me that a kid who beats 3-or-4 Section Champs does not belong "ahead" of those wrestlers that he beat in season. NO WAY....does he not belong in a State Tourney.
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Feb 8, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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So how would that look Marty, how would you accommodate a state as large as ours? Would you use a strict point system (which itself is static and flawed because it goes by what your opponent did last year), would you have some new computer generated real time ranking system which will take into account if your opponent had bad gas that day and therefore your win against them is worth less? Tell us all how it will work. Will your system take into effect bonus points? Just saying we are one state doesn't work. Pennsylvania has districts, Jersey also. California which is one of the few states with one state champions you don't just jump to the state tournament there are regions. Tell us all how this "one state" system will work, thank you.
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Feb 9, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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Simplistic fix...IF, you eliminate the "SECTION" antiquated system. SECTIONs never considered the SIZE vs REPRESENTATION inequality.
REGIONAL QUALIFICATION.
North, South, East , West, etc.
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qualifiers- TOP - 4 - Go to a ONE DIVISION State Tournament,
NYC + Nassau/ Suffolk (4- reps) East Region
Section 1 + Section 9 + Section 2 (4- reps) South Region
Section 3 + Section 4 + Section 2 (4- reps) Central Region
Section 5 + Section 6 (4- reps) West Region
Section 7 + Section 10 (1- rep) North Region
CHSAA -(1-rep)- Invited
(Section 2- will be divided)
On SEEDING. No wrestler will get seeded by points or amount of wins. Only seeded by PAST State results and/or Region results...and head to heads.
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For us Long Islanders- a Long Island Championship + NYC.....then we meet the boyz from above the Tappen Zee.
BTW- The above format is the TRUEST way of finding the BEST in the State- going to ONE State Tourney.
........................
Lastly, Kyle Dake went to Lansing , HS...which is a PIMPLE on a Large School's "butt"....So much for SMALL SCHOOL/ LARGE SCHOOL....In this Sport wrestlers - wrestle each other every year..every day.
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Feb 9, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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I have no problem changing the system but it has to be fair... a true NYS champion needs to include PSAL. If population is your guide will you be willing to have them over represented? I would bet you would say no. Any system you propose has to fix problems and be easily instituted. I do not see a problem with instituting your system, I do see a problem with what it solves. I too am a fan of small school and large schools competing in the same championship (especially for an individual sport like wrestling, but not limited to that as small school Victor three years ago came up to large school to knock off Ward Melville in lacrosse, although a team sport is more difficult). My understanding of dealing with upstate representatives is that is never going to happen. So as simple as you think the system is it will never take root until you are solving a problem with your process that helps the upstate wrestling contingent. I do see the same problems we have now using your model, just different people doing the complaining. Despite you lack of interest in a point based system there will have to be precursors to the downstate regional and I doubt leagues would suffice. How each district chooses who goes would be a problem, if we use the current league based system in Nassau/Suffolk for example there is a disparity between how we choose our leagues/sectionals. Nassau uses a system that has less competition here, while Suffolk uses a system based on how large a school is the disparity here may leave kids benched from a league in Suffolk who could be a champion elsewhere (Silverstein/Cox/Sparacio from a few years ago comes to mind. The current wildcard system accommodated these wrestlers going to states I'm sure your regional tournament could not be big enough to accommodate three wrestlers from each league in Nassau Suffolk, and PSAL. I can go on with problems but my post is already lengthy, all I am trying to express is that in your perfect scenario we will have problems, that doesn't mean we don't try to fix but it does mean that this problem isn't as simplistic as you would like us all to think. There will always be a few who fall through the cracks.
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Feb 9, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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By the way Marty what you have described is very similar to what the NY chapter of USA wrestling is trying with the kids states. My friend Ted DePasquale is heading this effort, he can be reached by going through USA wrestling. Maybe this is an experiment needed to offer up some new thinking on how we approach the states. So far the results are mixed but they are learning and tweaking the event. Maybe you should offer your expertise here this way you can have some positive proof going forward if this is something you truly believe in.
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Feb 9, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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lol.
The WHOLE OBJECTIVE thought- is to place wrestlers without bias.
A REGIONAL format- seems to be a no brainer. A SECTION Format is subjective and reeks of bias.
This should have been fixed 40 yrs ago. Change is slow in NYS. Remember this Nassau/ Suffolk have 1-vote each and rarely if, at all have other Sections on their side at the voting table.
Many times both reps miss the vote because they know the outcome prior.
.....................
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Feb 10, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Not sure how to respond to your last comment, or if what you are saying is purely rhetorical, and doesn't require a response. Are you suggesting that all of Nassau, Suffolk, and NYC enter all teams and all wrestlers in a tremendous week long tournament to see who makes it to the finals (or first through fourth to go to states)? Surely you understand logistically there isn't a venue large enough to accommodate this and there is a need to prequalify for just this "regional" you recommend, and once you do that problems occur. Another question, without leagues or divisions within this large super sectional how would you rank wrestlers for seeding? Everyone couldn't possibly have met so there can be no head to heads for seeding purposes, is the entire 1000 man tournament unseeded? That in itself will present problems. Even working out the differences in how these three "districts" qualify wrestlers to go to this "regional" would take a lot of tinkering, and while nothing is impossible you are just trading poisons, you like arsenic, I like curare both will kill you. Maybe if there was a benevolent dictator who we can all trust to do all our thinking and solve our problems we would all be so much better, this democracy stuff is messy (sarcasm).
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Feb 13, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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Here is what you are missing..........
EQUAL "SECTIONAL" REPRESENTATION + wildcard system is what MOST of you accept as being fair and tolerable
What I'm saying.....the above is PATHETIC. It is NOT indicative of the BEST TALENT on the mat in New York State.
What it has done for "decades" is reward the weak and penalize the strength....ONE State should not be favoring equal representation instead of recognizing areas which continuously for decades - finish at the Top or near Top at the Sectional State Tournament.
Would I be soooooooo wrong to believe that a 3rd or 4th placed wrestler from Suffolk not in Albany...could win matches in Albany ??????
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Feb 13, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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But Marty as usual you half answered the question, then went off on a tangent. You were asked "how to do it", you partly answered and then when presented with a question regarding what you had proposed you don't answer and get back to complaining about how what we have is wrong. Contrast your lack of a response to a recent thread where Falcon made a poignant point about entering more then one entrant at college qualifications. He stated a problem then offered a thought out solution, simple in its elegance. Doesn't mean it is going to be enacted but it begins the discussion. Here, you like to lecture, not debate to get the best ideas worked out. When painted into a corner you change the topic, or don't answer, and or hype up the rhetoric. For the simple minded like me can you explain your thoughts further, or just stop complaining how what we have is so wrong.
For your prognostications on Suffolk county you speak to my strength. I will tell you while I will speak a little about college, I am very protective of the high school kids. One is they read these forums and need not see an adult talk bad about them in anyway (you didn't but I don't want this to devolve to that by anyone, I think speaking poorly of high school boys is gutter conversation and the kids are not fair game). Sean Carter is and has been an unsung hero in Suffolk. He was recently beat by Dylan Ryder and a kid Roy, Dylan's dad was "concerned" about. He is a great young wrestler and deserves this he has been working hard for years. Anthony Sobotker and Chris Gomez have both been outstanding kids in Suffolk. Chris was just getting over Flu, and Anthony a tad cautious because of the string of bad luck he has had with injuries. If they wrestle 10 times they would go 5-5. Both kids will do damage at states and I wish them well. Keep in mind when you don't have a natural phenom kid (like a Yanni, or a Vito) the great talent pool that is Suffolk county makes these kids better. Both Anthony and his teammate David (170) are multi-sport athletes. David will be playing lacrosse at a D1 institution next fall (Stonybrook). This is his second sport, that's what living in Suffolk did for them.
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Feb 13, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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You do it.....by eliminating BIAS.
The MAJORITY of Sections 2,3,4,5,- "LOVE" 2- Divisions......WHY?? cause it gets more of their wrestlers at the State Tourney. Many WRESTLERS who wouldn't qualify "if" it was ONE Divisional Tourney
So, their "bias" when voting will not favor a REGIONAL Format.
those who want a REAL State Tournament- with ONE REAL State Champ- knowing that the Sport favors competitive matches to raise their level...well, they would have to put bias aside and support having their 4- best per weight/ from their Section .
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Feb 14, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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So an intelligent conversation is moot. "You do it by eliminating bias", really now no one would like that. Platitudes, nothing but rhetoric and platitudes. Foolish me for thinking after all these years of complaining that you would at least have the shell of a system you would like instituted, maybe some workable design, but all you got is "you do it by eliminating bias", good job.
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Feb 14, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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that's how you see it ??? You just should say " thank you"....cause if, I didn't belabor and critique the former 35+ yr system of being unthoughtful....wrestlers such as Devon Brown, Lance Wade, Sean McCabe wouldn't be State Champs...to mention a few. "Wildcards" were sold by a daily poster who traveled throughout the State's many Forums.
The only way of waking up the dead. Long Island Sections should abandon the current format. Economically, this would stir the pot. While many bash the "flatlanders"....they like our dollars.
A Long Island Championship- then two weeks later an Invitational Tourney open to those State Champs/ placers from NJ- PA- and those North of the Tappen Zee...at Hofstra University. What an idea ..!!!! lol.
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