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Feb 6, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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I agree with quickpick. I know Shakur (Corey) personally, and have been rooting for him since he entered Penn State as a 160lber. While unfortunate (and it is truly a travesty) changing the rules would have devastating consequences for the future competition between institutions. Far from what LIMarty thinks, competition would decrease and there would only be the Big10 (and of that only a few "elite" institutions) and while it is better for the moment it will have a ripple effect throughout all conferences if we were able to change the rules. Right now weights like 141 are dominated by non-Big10 competitors. Kids like Seth Gross, Austin DeSanto, Kevin Jack and many others would all gravitate to the same 5/6 teams out of necessity and the competition would be worse not better. Because of this less kids will choose wrestling as a post high school sport because there would be less "truly competitive" spots. There would only be a handful of "good" college coaches and the rest will be glorified high school coaches and the talent pool of coaching would dwindle. Money will dry up for these other institutions and wrestling will wither. We do not need a "rule change" for every event that we see as a problem. Now my opinion might change if this became a regular situation, and year after year there were kids on the bench who were NCAA all americans in waiting, until then, no. Shakur (Corey) has been plagued with a shoulder injury since high school, there is no doubt in my mind that this has plagued his college career too, and that is reason I believe he hasn't won the spot outright earlier in the season, Cael is no fool. My heart, and prayers go out to the Rasheed family and Shakur, good people in a bad situation, but non the less not one worth destroying the thing that we all love.
Rob Araneo
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Feb 6, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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Sheeeeshhh!!!
Sometimes, I just think MOST are rocks. What do you get when you talk to rocks....NO ANSWERS....and then everyone thinks you're crazy.
The NCAA DI Wrestling Tournament...similar to the NYS Tournament.. allows weaker -inferior- conferences and individuals into their Tournament without adjusting the dynamics to support STRENGTH over WEAKNESS .
There are College DII wrestlers who can beat DI qualifiers. So, it easy to believe that there are back-up wrestlers in the BIG 10 that can handle EIWA qualifiers/Champs..etc.etc. So, what the NCAA did was to increase the amount of wrestlers per weight to qualify from the BIG 10 as well , as at large bids into the DI Tourney.
Is it so unfair to think that maybe, allowing (2) wrestlers per weight- into the BIG 10 Tourney ??? To think QUALIFIERS from across the Country are equal....is basically the same blunder which has been going on in New York State for the past 50 yrs. Here is a progressive thought. Wrestlers who have a 80+% win record- should have the right to enter the NCAA Tournament - UNATTACHED. Think about this before you "jump"...a DII wrestler with a 90% win record...the same...Set up PIGTAILs a day earlier.
Again , a situation which rewards the WEAK- and- hinders STRENGTH is not a system that is favorable toward competition. QUALIFICATIONs should be really dissected as to RESULTS. Meaning, where are the AAs coming from ?? Over the past 10-20 years. BTW. If, you have followed my posts over the years. You would know that I think Rules, Regulations, Standards, etc..can and should always be tweaked to improve the product. To find the closest and best way at achieving the exact result.
PS. An NCAA Athlete has 5 years/ sometimes 6 to compete for 4 yrs.
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Feb 6, 2018
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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Name one "devastating consequence" allowing 2 wrestlers per weight class in the conference tournament would have? One!!
Oh, I got it.........it may increase the brackets to normal size, and give a relatively unknown a chance to add excitement to an otherwise fairly predictable tournament. That would be terrible.
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Feb 6, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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You answered your own question.
Rasheed vs Cassar in the NCAA Finals ???
I agree Parity/ Superiority today is more the norm ...but, there are wrestlers that could win matches or knock off somebody if, they expanded the Tourney.
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Feb 6, 2018
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quickpick
Joined: Jan 9, 2015
Posts: 284
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So when Kevin Jack and Bryce Meredith were on the same team, both multiple time AA's, they shouldn't have been able to have the opportunity to both go to NCAA's because they were in the ACC instead of the BIG10? Again, many guys at this level have the potential to do well at the end of the season. How do you determine what conference allows multiple entries?
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Feb 6, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Marty, if at all possible stay on topic. To address the bulk of your last post, we know we know you think "today sucks", "our best days are behind us", and "you were there when....". None of these things address the current topic, nor point us to an answer. I may (and often am) wrong but I have stated an opinion. To state it succinctly, I do not see a way for Shakur to wrestle this year, nor do I see changing the rules for this unique event will fix some future wrong. If I understand your position it is to set up yet another strawman argument now the new word is "equality". If in past times we did this I would love to know (and I speak even of the made up world that you lived in). Tell me did the back ups to Tom and Terry Brands deserve to go to the NCA championship tournament? I'm sure they were better then 20-30% of the wrestlers at the time. However doing this will consolidate the best wrestlers in a handful of schools. It has nothing to do with making things equal because today PENN State dominates, 10 years ago it was Iowa, changing these rules today will assure no upstart college with a savvy coach could ever challenge the top 5 teams, no one in their right mind (who wanted to win a title) would ever deviate from the current top colleges. It would ensure less competition not more. Without a rant, or demigoging this issue can you explain a different point?
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Feb 6, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Falcon, depends on how the situation works out. If you are talking about each team having one (just one) place where they can enter a second wrestler in a qualifying tournament I would have less issues with this. This would have to occur at every institution you could not declare that only "these" schools get this advantage. This I do not believe is what you are saying, so I will address one way I see this being a mess. I do not see it possible for NCAA tournament to be bigger (it is already the only three day tournament), accommodating more wrestlers here isn't likely. The only way I see will happen is wildcard bids will be reduced to accommodate the increased numbers at the qualifiers (they won't technically be reduced they will be awarded to Big10 schools because a fair number of times the teammate vs teammate situation I explain below will effect the big 10 tournament). It will be commonplace for Ohio, Oklahoma State, Iowa, Penn State and maybe Michigan to enter 2 per weight class at their qualifying tournaments. When in the big 10 finals a teammate (especially the one who isn't the starter getting all the points) outperforms his teammate the starter it will necessitate a wild card bid. This will be a common place event whether the teammates meet on the winning side or the consi finals, because when you wrestle a guy everyday in the room you know everything they have, the matches will not be indicative of who is better but who has "figured out" their teammate better, I see this everyday on LI when two kids I know are in the same room and see each other in tournaments the best kid doesn't always win. Mathematically this will occur more often then not (it will be a job to separate teammates and try as you will it can't prevent them meeting on the backside). This will flood the NCAA tournament with these five teams eclipsing all the other teams (in my mind a bad thing). These teams will be recruiting the future guys in greater numbers (because everyone will want to go where they have a chance to win it). Wrestlers who may have thus far decided not to go to the top 5 colleges because they wanted something different will have to reconsider, and the whole system will become smaller not bigger. I think big decisions like this need to be made to grow the sport not to make it smaller and I feel this would make it smaller. All this to fix a problem we don't know needs fixing. I speculated earlier that Shakur didn't get the starting position because of an injury that he received in high school that I know in previous years at PENN has caused him issues, and that may be the injury he aggravated in his wrestle off. As a parent of two wrestlers who are injured (my oldest on a three month concussion protocol and my youngest with a broken limb just back last weekend I can sympathize but I can't see how a rule change fixes this. Only my opinion.
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Feb 6, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Marty the subject of wrestlers from D2 or D3 wrestlers entering the NCAA tournament has more then just a competition aspect to it. Talking to people who were D1 all Americans I have heard resentment towards D2 wrestlers coming to their event because they didn't have to go through the same grind and they were less "beaten up". I have never competed at anything close to this level but I can see both sides of the argument.
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Feb 6, 2018
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LImarty
Joined: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 1130
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DI wrestlers and their Coaches are well aware of the amount of matches wrestled during the year....subject to them NOT being overly wrestled. So, it has been quite common to see Top guys having less than 20 matches all season.
The only basis for not having two reps from Top conferences...is REDSHIRT. Though, imo multiple talent at one institution should not be hindered.
The former CAA- as an example was an INFERIOR Conference with few years of success at the NCAA Tourney. There are DII wrestlers that can compete with the bottom 3-8 placers in the DI Tourney. Some might even surprise the Top.
Ive seen back-ups from the BIG 10 in Open Tournies beat wrestlers from other Conferences.
EXPAND....the Tourney. Might not change the Finals yet, imo would change the AAs.
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Feb 6, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Still haven't said anything tangible to the problem at hand. The issue is a wrestler who may not get a shot although worthy. Question is what to do about it. Your answer is "expand the tournament" which I can only think you mean the championship. So three days isn't a long enough grind. Ok if that's your answer, I just don't agree with it. I also do not agree with the Big10 or any other league given preference, to do so would only cement them being the top division permanently.
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Feb 6, 2018
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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They ARE the top conference! That's why they get preference. You know what cements being the top conferrence? Their recruiting!!! You don't think a kid who has 4 or 5 nationally ranked wrestlers in his conference bracket deserves more consideration for the NCAA tournament than a kid from another conference with ZERO in his bracket?
Imagine being in a conference bracket that only takes 2 kids to the NCAA tournament, and the top seeds are Retherford and Sorenson? You may as well go home.
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Feb 6, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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Big 10 wasn't always the powerhouse it is now, and giving them two entrants to the NCAA tournament will cement that for time and memorial. They are better, but there are still plenty of AA contenders in other divisions. What I am saying is if you think you are fixing a problem and you create another one and still may not fix the original problem then what have you done. The original post was highlighting the "unfairness" in PENN state having two guys who could AA at 197, and because Shakur is a New Yorker we want to bend the rules to give him a spot in the NCAA finals because we empathize with all his efforts. All I can say is "the path to hell is paved with good intentions", and the end result of the Big10 having double entrants is going to have many negative effects. By the way should Maryland get two entrants in the sectional tournament? How about if they get it shouldn't Oklahoma State? Next year there will be a log jam at 125 if Dayton Fix wants to go 125, should he and Piccinni both go? Why not three then? What if they recruit for kids for that weight where do we draw the line and why?
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Feb 6, 2018
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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The answer to your questions are yes, yes, and yes. Each team should be allowed 2 entrants per weight class in their conference tournament. And if you think that's too much, then allow a coach 12 entrants........so he can pick the 2 extra kids himself! What is so wrong with that??
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Feb 6, 2018
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bigkidsdad
Joined: Feb 18, 2017
Posts: 166
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That's reasonable for the qualifying tournaments. The NCAA should not change and if on rare occasion teammates Face each other then so be it
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Feb 6, 2018
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Falcs96
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
Posts: 597
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Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.....qualifying tournaments. So if coaches could enter 2 extra kids they believe could make some noise against most starters in the nation, then can give them their shot in the qualifier. The kid still has to earn his way to the NCAA tournament, but at least he gets his chance, instead of being told his season's over when he's a top 10 nationally ranked wrestler! That's a bit ridiculous to me.
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